One Last Play

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tref

I like to be a few steps behind the deepest in bounds matchup (when possible). I understand about opening up to the court, but I also want to put myself in the best position possible to see plays like this in its entirety & also to referee the quck steal. I've found that positioning myself to be one play ahead of the throw-in results in getting unexpected plays correct.
IMO if a steal occured in this play the T (new L) is already beat.

Understood, got it, I agree. Now, how far would you go with this? To me, this is one of those "It depends" situations (not the adult diapers either). Yes, it is a good idea to be behind the deepest players, but are you going to "bounce" the ball 20 feet from the inbounder?

I don't have any set distance, but there is a point where I will open up instead of moving back. I don't think the official in the video is too far from where he should be. I could tell he was relatively inexperienced when watching the video, but he is doing OK for someone in their first year.

[btaylor64]

This is an impede on the defense in my opinion. Onus to be legal is on the defense. The off. fakes backward forcing the def. to come forward, now off. tries to go by and gets checked up by the shoulder of the defense. good play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Understood, got it, I agree. Now, how far would you go with this? To me, this is one of those "It depends" situations (not the adult diapers either). Yes, it is a good idea to be behind the deepest players, but are you going to "bounce" the ball 20 feet from the inbounder?

I don't have any set distance, but there is a point where I will open up instead of moving back. I don't think the official in the video is too far from where he should be. I could tell he was relatively inexperienced when watching the video, but he is doing OK for someone in their first year.

You're right.. it all depends. Just like any other positioning, I believe we have to have a feel for when to open up vs. stepping back when different throw-in situations arise.

Yeah the new guy isnt afraid to blow, gotta give him credit for putting a whistle on it!

[Camron Rust]

Block. Moving forward.

[Pantherdreams]

Well there are a couple of different ways to look at this (imo)

1 - If I'm the official in that situation and have not been looking at the play and suddenly this happens. I would like to think i'ld swallow my whistle (and my pride) on a play where I would be guessing based on the result. So in that exact situation as that guy (no call).

2 - Seeing the play the way it developed. I'm probably going to go push on the offense or maybe even double foul. My feeling based on what I'm seeing on camera is the offense isn't trying to get by the defense but rather crashing into defense trying to cause excessive contact and make a non-basketball play. Just as I'm seeing it. Either way I'm going to have a short convo with both after the call about playing basketball and not tag with each other.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

...or maybe even double foul. My feeling based on what I'm seeing on camera is the offense isn't trying to get by the defense but rather crashing into defense trying to cause excessive contact and make a non-basketball play. Just as I'm seeing it. Either way I'm going to have a short convo with both after the call about playing basketball and not tag with each other.

Come on!!!!!

[APG]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

2 - Seeing the play the way it developed. I'm probably going to go push on the offense or maybe even double foul. My feeling based on what I'm seeing on camera is the offense isn't trying to get by the defense but rather crashing into defense trying to cause excessive contact and make a non-basketball play. Just as I'm seeing it. Either way I'm going to have a short convo with both after the call about playing basketball and not tag with each other.

Why is there a need to talk to anyone after this? This is just a regular basketball play...opponents do run into each other every now and then. I don't even know how you come up with a double foul...that seems like you're making a cop-out because you don't want to make the tough call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Well there are a couple of different ways to look at this (imo)

1 - If I'm the official in that situation and have not been looking at the play and suddenly this happens. I would like to think i'ld swallow my whistle (and my pride) on a play where I would be guessing based on the result. So in that exact situation as that guy (no call).

Sorry, a no call is just not an option in this situation.....collision and both bodies go down. You have to take what you know and make a decision. Even if you're not 100%, there needs to be a call. You'd look far worse doing nothing here with the play right in your lap than getting a close call wrong.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

2 - Seeing the play the way it developed. I'm probably going to go push on the offense or maybe even double foul. My feeling based on what I'm seeing on camera is the offense isn't trying to get by the defense but rather crashing into defense trying to cause excessive contact and make a non-basketball play. Just as I'm seeing it. Either way I'm going to have a short convo with both after the call about playing basketball and not tag with each other.

The offense isn't required to avoid a defender who doesn't have legal position. It is the defenders responsibility to legally get in the path and maintain a legal position. If they don't, they have no protection in such collisions.

No convo needed. Defender got beat and committed a foul.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Why is there a need to talk to anyone after this? This is just a regular basketball play...opponents do run into each other every now and then. I don't even know how you come up with a double foul...that seems like you're making a cop-out because you don't want to make the tough call.

I see what you are saying. My gut says in most games I'm calling push/charge on the offense.

Trying to look at the game as a whole (which is tough with only the clip):
- You've got what appears to be a low level game based on age and size of players
- You've got a low skill game based on lack of footwork to get open and the catch and shoot mechanics of the player they choose to feed the ball to later in the clip.
- You've got an offensive and defensive player who will be seeing each other on a number of inbounds who's immediate responses seem to be to clutch and grab and then crash into the clutcher and grabber.

Probably too much analysis and inference here but seems like the sort of game where you may need to do managing to make sure things stay clean and kids are focused on playing the game/ may not understand rules. This is the only situation and reason I would think double foul and talk. Clean this up if it is constant on inbounds all game long based on just the clip.

[Toren]

I watched the video once and a few things that I saw, and take this from a first year official as well:

I'm not sure what the referee was looking at, he isn't involved in the play at all, the player throwing the ball in-bounds isn't part of any action area. And any step over the boundary plane you can clearly see out of your peripheral vision. So as a first year referee, I would think we would more likely miss a player crossing the boundary plane because we were so intent on the two action players. Instead this referee chooses to watch the non action area.

I'm okay with either call, block or charge as this is a bang bang type of play. Personally I'm going with the offensive call. I didn't like the way he reported it. I only watched it once to give initial insight, but I believe he reported the wrong number. Also I didn't like his communication with his partner.

Lastly, I didn't like the jumper by the big kid, wow that shot was ugly

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sorry, a no call is just not an option in this situation.....collision and both bodies go down. You have to take what you know and make a decision. Even if you're not 100%, there needs to be a call. You'd look far worse doing nothing here with the play right in your lap than getting a close call wrong.


The offense isn't required to avoid a defender who doesn't have legal position. It is the defenders responsibility to legally get in the path and maintain a legal position. If they don't, they have no protection in such collisions.


No convo needed. Defender got beat and committed a foul.

We can agree to disagree assuming I don't see the play I can't call things I don't see. SHould their be a call here definitely. But if I don't see a travel, foul or any other call in the course of a game I not calling to call it on the notion it looks bad if I don't call something here. If questioned I would readily admit that it was suppose to be my call and I missed it.



The offense isn't required to avoid a defender who doesn't have legal position. It is the defenders responsibility to legally get in the path and maintain a legal position. If they don't, they have no protection in such collisions.

The offense is not required to avoid the defender ever legal position or no. They also don't have to run over anyone whether they are a defender, screener, hapless lost player on the court or teammate. We just need to determine who was responsible for contact, who was advantaged or disadvantaged by a particular play, etc.

I'm not convinced based on the situation I see in the video that player on offense is making a legitmate move to get open or run to a spot as much as they are running into the defense simply to create a contact situation. My point is only that in the context of each game this play may be different (level of play, previous acts, etc) so I could see making each of the calls I mentioned in different situations.

In the end I'm certainly not punishing a defender if offense is clearly not trying to go by or get the ball but rather just run them over through their chest.

I don't think without the context of the game I can say for sure whether a convo is needed or not. Tnough we could say that for any clip, so you are right in that is probably isn't worth mentioning here.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Probably too much analysis and inference here but seems like the sort of game where you may need to do managing to make sure things stay clean and kids are focused on playing the game/ may not understand rules. This is the only situation and reason I would think double foul and talk. Clean this up if it is constant on inbounds all game long based on just the clip.

You're exactly right! At this level many of it participants do not understand the rules & it is not our jobs to teach them the rules. I've learned that putting air in the whistle is better than s l o w i n g the game down to talk to kids on basic plays. IMO, there was nothing non-basketball about this play & doesn't require an official to discuss anything with the kids.
We cannot make sure things are "clean" & we are not required to keep the kids "focused" on anything. We penalize illegal acts AFTER they occur...

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

We can agree to disagree assuming I don't see the play I can't call things I don't see. SHould their be a call here definitely. But if I don't see a travel, foul or any other call in the course of a game I not calling to call it on the notion it looks bad if I don't call something here. If questioned I would readily admit that it was suppose to be my call and I missed it.

I understand not guessing based on how a travel looks but using clues to make a decision when we cant see obvious fouls is not a bad thing.
I think we all have that little voice inside of us...

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I don't think without the context of the game I can say for sure whether a convo is needed or not. Tnough we could say that for any clip, so you are right in that is probably isn't worth mentioning here.

Again, I didnt see anything non-basketball.