Double Whistles

SCBroncos · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 23, 2003, 11:35pm

One thing I have worked on this year is making sure that when I have a foul or violation - even a jump ball - I blow my whistle and raise my hand (open or closed) and then make sure my partner doesn't also have something on the same play before I indicate my call.

Last night in a league championship game I saw not once, but twice, two officials have double whistles. The first time official #1 had a charge and indicated it immediately while #2 had a block and signaled it right away as well. The second time (2 quarters later) the reverse happened and official #1 had the block and #2 had the charge. Needless to say, the coaches went crazy on both plays as they each knew one official had the call "their way".

The way they resolved it was a little odd, #2's called stood both times - even though it was really his partners primary in both cases. #2 was the R, so I guess he just made it so. On the second call, I saw #1 shrug towards one of the players as if to say - sorry pal, not my fault.

I try to cover this in my pre-game with my partner and I have never had a problem. I have also never worked with someone that refused to defer to my call and take matter into his own hands. Do any of you have advice for me should I be confronted in such a situation?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 23, 2003, 11:58pm

In both of these situations the officials screwed up because:

#1 - they didn't stop the clock with a fist and make eye contact.

#2 - they should have called a double foul in both situations.

#3 - neither official can overrule the other.

Sad day.

canuckrefguy · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 12:11am

Agree on #1 and #3, but shouldn't they have just gone AP?

Double foul automatically gives offensive team possession again.

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 12:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Double foul automatically gives offensive team possession again.

Not in NF or NCAA Rules. Double fouls are AP situations.

Peace

Paul LeBoutillier · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 12:51am

We've discussed the issue of double whistles on several occasions. For starters a double whistle (dealing with the same play) reveals that NO ONE was looking off the ball and SOMEONE was probably calling outside their area.

But when a double whistle occurs we FIRST look to see what the other official has (fist or open hand). Then we come together quickly and ask "What do you have?" If we have different calls we quickly assess if one occurred first (if possible). If we determine we have the same call, the official closest to the call reports. If we have concurrent fouls, we make them accordingly.

Double whistles are a good reason to connect and do a little talking during dead balls to make sure they don't keep happening.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 12:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier
We've discussed the issue of double whistles on several occasions. For starters a double whistle (dealing with the same play) reveals that NO ONE was looking off the ball and SOMEONE was probably calling outside their area.

Paul, I would not go that far. I think it depends on where the ball is and what is called. And it depends on the type of officiating crew that you have. Two Person and 3 Person can have a different level of number of double whistles and reasons for them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier

But when a double whistle occurs we FIRST look to see what the other official has (fist or open hand). Then we come together quickly and ask "What do you have?" If we have different calls we quickly assess if one occurred first (if possible). If we determine we have the same call, the official closest to the call reports. If we have concurrent fouls, we make them accordingly.

Actually you do not even have to come together if discussed properly in the pregame. You might determine that a certain official has a call depending on its location. You might have a certain official just drop out or give up the call to his/her partner. Most double whistles I have, my partners and I do not even have to say a word to each other. Make eye contact or not make eye contact and maybe one of the officials just drops their arm.

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier

Double whistles are a good reason to connect and do a little talking during dead balls to make sure they don't keep happening.

They can be if they are happening for no good reason. But sometimes they are good, it just comes down to how you handle them.

Peace

canuckrefguy · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 01:17am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Double fouls are AP situations.

only partly true in NCAA...

In this particular situation (the dreaded BLARGE), if a double personal's called, the team in control retains control. AP only used when there's no team control.

Partly my mistake for mis-quoting myself! Sorry!

Pre-game agreement to concede to "whoever it's coming towards" would have solved this, of course. Along with that extra second hesitation after blowing the whistle.

Knock on wood, I have had no blarges this season, although I have a few weeks to go still.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 01:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Double fouls are AP situations.

only partly true in NCAA...

In this particular situation (the dreaded BLARGE), if a double personal's called, the team in control retains control. AP only used when there's no team control.

I believe the situation that you just discribed only goes along with Men's NCAA Rules. Women's does it like the NF Rules. I think this is one of those many stupid differences between the Men's and Women's side.

I probably should have been more specific myself. But when you have not done a college game in over a month, you forget about these little differences.

Peace

canuckrefguy · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 01:32am

Yet another illustration of why the rules should perhaps be standardized as much as possible.

Honestly, this having two sets of NCAA rules, and then NFHS on top of that, is silly...

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 01:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Yet another illustration of why the rules should perhaps be standardized as much as possible.

Honestly, this having two sets of NCAA rules, and then NFHS on top of that, is silly...

Don't forget the mechanics. That is another discussion all together too.

Peace

canuckrefguy · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 01:49am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Don't forget the mechanics. That is another discussion all together too.

Don't get me started on that...

Rich · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 08:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier
We've discussed the issue of double whistles on several occasions. For starters a double whistle (dealing with the same play) reveals that NO ONE was looking off the ball and SOMEONE was probably calling outside their area.

But when a double whistle occurs we FIRST look to see what the other official has (fist or open hand). Then we come together quickly and ask "What do you have?" If we have different calls we quickly assess if one occurred first (if possible). If we determine we have the same call, the official closest to the call reports. If we have concurrent fouls, we make them accordingly.

Double whistles are a good reason to connect and do a little talking during dead balls to make sure they don't keep happening.

This is not always true. Fouls that occur near the line that divide the official's primaries often result in a double whistle.

The thing against double whistles is over-rated. The time double whistles are bad is when the ball is clearly in one official's primary and the other officials really reaches into it.

The problem is not handling the double whistle properly.

Rich

APHP · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 09:00am

A jump ball does not require a "stop the clock" signal. Just 2-thumbs up. I guess there is no harm in giving the stop the clock first, it is just not required.

NCAAREF · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 09:17am

Fellas the rule is the same for double fouls in both men's and women's NCAA. Offense keeps ball with no reset of shot clock. My question is how can you have both a block and a charge on the same play?

ChuckElias · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 24, 2003, 09:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by NCAAREF
My question is how can you have both a block and a charge on the same play?

A very experienced official recently expressed to me his theory that on 99% of all blarge calls, the Lead has the block and the Trail has the charge. His thought is that the Lead picks up the play much later and doesn't see the defense until the contact occurs. Always looks like a block.

Any thoughts?

Chuck