For Hawks Coach, and all coaches

[cropduster]

Coach, just wondering if after being on this forum for the time that you have do you see the game (as called by the officials) differently than you did before you became a regular? Since I returned to the court, and started coming to this sight, I find that my tolerance for the officials has softened some. Others?

BarryB

[just another ref]

I am usually very tolerant of officials unless they call the 5th foul on my son on a clean block at a crucial time in a very important game.

Wait, I just remembered. We won the game anyway in spite of this intolerable call. Never mind.

[Edited by just another ref on Feb 18th, 2003 at 12:24 AM]

[CYO Butch]

I find that each year that passes I gain a greater appreciation of how difficult the officials job is. I think I have always been pretty tolerant because of the way I was brought up. To me, an official is like a cop. I was brought up to respect cops because of the job they do. When cops aren't respected society falls apart. Likewise, if basketball officials are not respected, the game falls apart. That said, popping in on the board for the last 2 years has made me understand things about the game that I never learned just coaching. A little bit of it has to do with the rules, but mostly it has to do with how I see the game on the court. It's pretty hard to define, but I believe that I see what is happening much better. I don't just watch my players to see if they are doing what they've been coached to do, but I watch with a little more detachment. Maybe I'm a little less of my own team's fan, and a little more of an analyst of what is going on. In any case, it has definitely made be a better coach, and I hope, has made the kids on my team better people - and maybe better players as well.

[theboys]

As I've said ad nauseum, this site has helped my appreciation and understanding of the game, and officals, immensely. I'm in "tweener" status right now - I coached my older son at the youth level, but he is now in high school, and my youngest is too young to play yet, so I'm just a spectator these days.

And, while my rules knowledge has really improved, a side benefit to lurking on the site is getting a better understanding of the "mindset" of officials. I don't mean that in a bad way. Again, it just gives me a better understanding of game "atmosphere".

[ROMANO]

I also think that this site has helped my understanding of the game when i read so much messages of so many diffrents officials.this site and this forum is one of the best !

[ROMANO]

and p.s
i'm talking as a refree ..

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by CYO Butch
To me, an official is like a cop. I was brought up to respect cops because of the job they do.

I believe the correct term of respect would be Policeman, Officer, Sir or Ma'am.

Personally, I don't find the term "cop" much higher up the respect scale than "pig."

Just the humble way that I was brought up.

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

I believe the correct term of respect would be Policeman, Officer, Sir or Ma'am.

Personally, I don't find the term "cop" much higher up the respect scale than "pig."

Just the humble way that I was brought up.

I certainly apologize for giving offense. I was taught that "cop" was an old British abbreviation for "Constable on Patrol". For me the term connotes a real person, above and beyond the badge. (I must admit, however, that on the few occasions I have been pulled over, it is always "Sir" or "Ma'am.) I have worked with many policemen and police departments over the years, including the Maryland State Police, the Florida Highway Patrol, and the North Dakota Highway Patrol, and am currently working with a federal law enforcement agency. I even got a nomination (although not the award) for the International Association of Chiefs of Police "Police Science Award". There is certainly no way that I meant to show disrespect to a profession that contributes so much and that I have had to opportunity to work with frequently over the years.

[williebfree]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

I believe the correct term of respect would be Policeman, Officer, Sir or Ma'am.

Personally, I don't find the term "cop" much higher up the respect scale than "pig."

Just the humble way that I was brought up.

First:
I believe this thread is no longer a “coach exclusive” thread. Therefore, I will once again give praise to all the participants here for their diverse feedback. Each game situation and game management issue gets thoroughly dissected and supported by review of the applicable rules.

I have been saved from embarrassing “learning” experiences because of the variety of weird situations discussed here. For this, I am very thankful that the forum has expedited the learning curve, exponentially.

Bottom line: I am a much better official because of my involvement in this forum.
Second:
I am a teacher in a juvenile corrections institution and find myself CONSTANTLY correcting my students' use of derogatory terms to describe law enforcement officers. The most commonly used term is "Those damn cops... blah, blah, blah.." I politely, but sternly, redirect their statement (and attitude) by rephrasing their statement, "You mean, I strongly disagreed with the law enforcement officer...." It is a constant battle to get them to accept responsibility and not disrespect authority. Some of you may not find this to be a big deal, but it IS in the environment that I work.

You ask, "Why is he telling us this?"

We have had numerous threads about correct terminology and I feel that the dialogue about correct terminology in officiating and respectfully addressing officers parallels each other.

Interestingly, I am also a facilitor in a program that brings a retired detective into the institution. He is originally from NYC and does not censor himself in his presentation. So, what are some of the first words out of his mouth? "The cops are out there and they are gonna bust ya. Sooner or later they are gonna bust ya."

I am thinking.... (Like Juulie) there is no such thing as "over-the-back" (cop).

[canuckrefguy]

I never even knew this board existed, although I suspected that "there must be some kind of chat room for refs".

It's been a really valuable tool for me this season. The knowledge expressed on this board is impressive, especially the nuts and bolts stuff like rulebook cases. The opinions are also useful, especially those heated discussions with 4-page threads.

As for the "cop thing", up in Canada we have mostly Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, or "The Mounties". I know several RCMP officers, and none of them find the word "cop" offensive. I was always taught it was short for "Constable On Patrol". Naturally the Pork references are a different story, (as are the doughnut analogies).

[Hawks Coach]

1. I understand how a game is being called much better now. There are calls that are passed on (adv/disadv) that I never understood. There are rules that I didn't know all of the nuances of. I also get frustrated at a poorly reffed game because I know when they are on it and when they are not. But I have learned that it doesn't matter, because those refs are reffing at their capacity that day, and we need to play the game as it is called.

2. I can communicate more appropriately with officials. If I do have an issue, it will be (generally) a rules issue, where we all agree as to what occurred, but disagree as to how to enforce the rules. Have gotten a couple of calls to go my way with such knowledge.

(Some might argue that I should be equal opportunity in my use of interps, i.e., help my opponent as well as me. It may sound more sporting, and perhaps it is, but I believe that all coaches have access to the same resources - if they don't know the rule and don't step in, it's their problem not mine. I am not a neutral arbiter - I am a highly parochial observer and will lobby for my team. But I won't be on the ref the whole game like my opponents - I will ask for what I think we deserve)

3. I have a much better understanding of how much we get as well as how much we lose in terms of calls. I have a chirper of an assistant, and one way I have learned to keep him quiet is to only mention the calls we get to go our way - a bad BC violation call on our opponents, an OOB that goes our way, etc. He tends to note only that which goes against us, but he is quieter when he knows we're getting a few as well.

4. I teach my players much better. They know the rules better, as well as how refs apply the rules. They know much better how to read an official, rather than being upset at the way they are calling a game. I am really working on them to keep their emotions in check - I tell them that the ref should never know what they think of a call, because most refs don't want to know that a player disagrees. Just play.

I also teach them whare the problem areas are in the rules, especially for junior refs (backcourt anyone?). It is better to avoid ambiguity and potential bad calls, rather than to roll the dice on getting a good view of the call AND a proper rules interpretation. So I teach them what the rule is, but also to stay out of situations where someone can either not clearly see what happened or mis-apply a rule that is widely mis-understood. If they put themselves in a situation where a call can go against them, I tell them not to complain that the call went wrong - it is their fault for allowing an opportunity for a bad call. I am a big fan of personal accountability for actions - blaming refs allows players a cop-out and lets too many problems go unaddressed.

5. We win more games. Dan Harwood, a local public HS coach of outstanding reputation and won/loss record in the area, recently spoke to our club. (I find successful public school coaches much more impressive because they can't recruit - they do with what they are handed rather than by recruiting the best players) Harwood said that AAU, travel, and rec coaches all spend too much time griping at refs. His main point was if you are yelling, you aren't coaching your players. You get so wrapped up in how the ref is costing you a game that you don't note the critical aspects of your play that are costing you the game.

Coach Harwood related a story about a travel league game he coached where his player got an offensive bound on a FT then an easy putback with a foul. The opposing coach was all over the refs for (all together now) "overtheback, comeonnow, yougottacallthat." In reality, Harwood's player stepped right around the defender, got an easy rebound and then the put back. The coach should have been on his player. Harwood looked at his assistant, smiled, and said "that's why we're going to win this game." He was coaching, his opponent was not. He was right then, and continues to win by coaching rather than chirping.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy


It's been a really valuable tool for me this season. The knowledge expressed on this board is impressive, especially the nuts...

...and we do have our share of nuts around here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

...and we do have our share of nuts around here.

Take Mr. Elias,for instance...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[
...and we do have our share of nuts around here.

Take Mr. Elias,for instance...
[/B][/QUOTE]

Geeze, where did you find that picture?

BTW, Chuck's not quite that tall...

[ChuckElias]

Wow. I can't decide which is worse. The fact that you either had this picture at your disposal or spent time and effort finding it; or the fact that you apply it to me!! Yikes!

Chuck