Push-ups

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Can someone have fun. I thought it was spontaneous and fun. Lighten up. This is afterall a game. If you found it objectionable, talk to the kid and move on. I for one have not seen this before and was kind of funny. Sometimes I think all we want to do is show our authority.

Peace

You are absolutely correct, it is just a game. But what ever happened to sportsmanship. If that had been my son, he would have never gotten to shoot his free throw.

So my contribution to this thread is: W-H-A-C-K!!!

[Adam]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Why couldn't it been spontaneous? We see kids chest bump, jump in teammates arms, do fancy high five routines and I do not see anyone crying for a T then. Why now and not the other things that take place? This kid made a great play and did something that was right after the action. He did get knocked down and if I am not mistaken he was on his belly and started doing push ups. I agree this is something you do not see everyday, but it is not like he went to center court and did the push ups. He did this in the place he was knocked down. I will agree that it was not the most sportsmanlike act, but we do not T every act that does not feel right. The best thing to do would have been to talk to the kid if you had a problem. Not unless you see this again would I consider this to be staged. But I have never seen this before, so to suggest that it could not have been spontaneous is ridiculous. Considering all the situations here, this was very spontaneous. I guess when a kid dunks and yells, you are T'ing him up too? I hear them do this very often on TV and in HS games. I guess that just crosses the line too?

Peace [/B]

To me, the unsporting part was that his legs (while doing the pushups) were on top of the defender. In the replays, you see the defensive player struggling to get up during the offending pushups.
If he just does the pushups, I let it go with a warning. But since he's doing them over top of the defender, I think a T is warranted.

Adam

[JRutledge]

I trust the judgement of the officials that were there. They did not seem to react in the way that most here (and I assume the most are not on that level that are commenting on) that have responded to the post. I think many of us are looking for something to penalize someone for. Unless there was something that took place, let it go. But then again, if you feel like this is something you have to go fishing for, the cast away.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

From the latest NCAA Bulletin from the National Supervisor of Officials, Henry Nichols:

Dead-Ball Officiating. All three officials must constantly observe all ten players on dead balls, especially after violations and foul calls. This is a habit that officials must acquire so that it becomes second nature. This season officials have become lax on dead balls and too many incidents that should be addressed have gone unnoticed.

Maybe the D1 guys have some things to work on, too.

Not sure he was referring to situations like the one in question, but...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
From the latest NCAA Bulletin from the National Supervisor of Officials, Henry Nichols:

Dead-Ball Officiating. All three officials must constantly observe all ten players on dead balls, especially after violations and foul calls. This is a habit that officials must acquire so that it becomes second nature. This season officials have become lax on dead balls and too many incidents that should be addressed have gone unnoticed.

Maybe the D1 guys have some things to work on, too.

Not sure he was referring to situations like the one in question, but...

Who said they did not observe, they just did not react to the situation they way (folks that were not there) we reacted. We if any of us officiate in real life, we should realize that it is easy to officiate from the stands, then it is to officiate when you are there. I trust the judgement of the men that were there, rather than someone viewing something on a TV screen.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I trust the judgement of the men that were there, rather than someone viewing something on a TV screen.

Peace

The men you are trusting are the same ones who let 6 players on the floor recently and have also been seen calling traveling on a throw-in. Just because they made D-1 doesn't make them infallible, nor does it make them off limits to discussion. From what I have seen, sportsmanship is much better on the high school level than it is at college levels. This is one example of things that get "let go" at the college level which would usually be penalized in high school. If you can't distinguish the difference between jumping high-gives and push-ups..... well, that speaks for itself. If after the push-ups, the player then did a little dance on the players stomach, would we still have a "stick up our butt" for calling a T? No wonder you think it's always the officials fault when a T is called.... you wouldn't know an unsportsmanlike act if it bit you on the butt.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman

The men you are trusting are the same ones who let 6 players on the floor recently and have also been seen calling traveling on a throw-in. Just because they made D-1 doesn't make them infallible, nor does it make them off limits to discussion. From what I have seen, sportsmanship is much better on the high school level than it is at college levels. This is one example of things that get "let go" at the college level which would usually be penalized in high school. If you can't distinguish the difference between jumping high-gives and push-ups..... well, that speaks for itself. If after the push-ups, the player then did a little dance on the players stomach, would we still have a "stick up our butt" for calling a T? No wonder you think it's always the officials fault when a T is called.... you wouldn't know an unsportsmanlike act if it bit you on the butt.

Z

We could be talking about HS or middle school officials, they were there, you and I were not. I have always felt that judgement calls are better made by the officials that are doing the game. In my opinion, if I was watching the a game and you were on the floor, who the hell am I to be telling the people around me that I should have called something and I am sitting in the cheap seats? Well, we all were in the cheap seats. We did not earn the right to do that game and I think it is wrong and unprofessional for many who are not here to be making judgements on what is unsportsmanlike, when none of us were there to make that call. If you want to say this is what should have been done, then go to a camp and come here and defend every single situation that happens on your court, by a bunch of people that will never sit in your shoes for one day. I do not think anyone here has earned that right to start talking about what is unsportsmanlike at that level and what is not when you were not there. Easy to look at replay film and see it over and over again and say, "that should have been called."

If this is not the truth, do not ever get mad when when officiate a game or you know someone is officiating and some fellow official is ripping apart ever decision they make. Talking openly about "they missed this" or "they missed that." Or "I cannot believe they didn't called that."

The truth about this board is that the only thing that ties us together is that we claim to be officals. Does not mean we all take the thing we call professionalism to a higher plane. But then again, this is the internet.

Peace

[zebraman]

We're not sitting in the cheap seats. The post asked posters here if doing push-ups, after a slam dunk, is unsportsmanlike. If that isn't taunting, I don't know what is. If you don't think is, then that's your opinion...it's just hard for me to believe that anyone wouldn't consider that unsportsmanlike. That could definitely lead to a fight. IMHO, if we don't draw the line at that, we might as well not even have a line. Implying that we can't discuss it because D-1 refs are involved is just plain dumb. I ref some of my NFHS games with D-1, D-2, and D-3 refs. They're just people, not gods... the only difference is that they don't mind the nomadic lifestyle during the winter as much as some of the rest of us. Doesn't sound like it was a "judgment call" in the sense that it "might have been a foul, might not have been a foul." A dunk happened and push-ups followed. I think very few people who saw that would pass on a T. Maybe the assignor for that conference punishes refs who give a T, even if it's well-deserved. That would be sad.

Z

[jbduke]

I'm a referee. And a Duke alum. I thought he should have been whacked. At best, Jones's actions were a "look at what a great play I made" display. At worst, they constituted a taunt. Either way, the dunk spoke for itself; he didn't need to add anything. Instead, he took away from his spectacular athletic effort with his follow-up act.

[BktBallRef]

jbduke, what do you think of Jones? I hear a lot of Duke fans comment about his poor conduct, much like Tar Heel fans used to talk about Wallace.

[JRutledge]

If that isn't taunting, I don't know what is.

If the question was asked, obviously it was not clear cut.

If you don't think is, then that's your opinion...it's just hard for me to believe that anyone wouldn't consider that unsportsmanlike.

Because when you are so self-absorbed in your own opinion, you cannot see the other side.

That could definitely lead to a fight.

Many things that we discuss here could lead to a fight. I do not see your post talking about how "it has got to be unsportsmanlike." I could see the "yelling" post as being a perfect example, but many here said that was OK.

IMHO, if we don't draw the line at that, we might as well not even have a line.

In your humble opinion. Did you forget what that means?


Implying that we can't discuss it because D-1 refs are involved is just plain dumb.

I am not saying you cannot discuss it. You can discuss anything you like. This is a free country and a free board. But for others to not take issue with your point of view is rather selfish from my point of view. The officials that were there did not do what you suggest. You have a right to see it another way, but I have the right to not agree with you.

I ref some of my NFHS games with D-1, D-2, and D-3 refs. They're just people, not gods... the only difference is that they don't mind the nomadic lifestyle during the winter as much as some of the rest of us.

There you go again, making a mountain out of a molehill. No one says anything about them being Gods. But I was not there (same attitude as I take at the HS levels) and reserve total judgement for the officials that "actually officiated the games." Can they make mistakes, they sure can, but to me this was not necessarily one of them. They made a judgement and I am sure there was a reason.

Doesn't sound like it was a "judgment call" in the sense that it "might have been a foul, might not have been a foul."

What is unsportsmanlike is no different that way is considered obscene. What is obscene to one person, is fun to another. This was totally a judgement call, if it was not then there would have been a T. They obviously passed on the act for some reason. I am sure there is debate amongs the folks that watched the game that have some direct interaction with officials.


A dunk happened and push-ups followed. I think very few people who saw that would pass on a T.

This is not about how many people agree or not disagree (at least for me it is not). I do not officiate and make calls based on a poll. I sure hope you do not either.

Maybe the assignor for that conference punishes refs who give a T, even if it's well-deserved. That would be sad.

Well I doubt that seriously. The fact of the matter is that I have never seen this and I am sure that many here have never seen this before. Which alone suggests to me that the act was totally spontaneous. If we start seeing this all over the place, then I would agree that maybe the act is to show up the opponents. But for you to suggest that there is only one way to handle this is rather ridicuolous. The officials passed and the folks here said they should have done something different. There seems to be a consensus that yelling is OK, but that is based on what we have seen in the past. If the NCAA wants to make this action unsportsmanlike, then they can put it in their tapes or discuss it in meetings. But as for what took place that night, it was not unsportsmanlike in my opinion. Doesn't mean I am right and it definitely does not mean that I am wrong either. It just means it is.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

My high school coach won 378 games and lost only 122 in 21 years as a coach. He was also an OhioHSAA registered basketball official for all of those years.

Since we were a pretty successful high school basketball program we always had teams gunning for us. But the most important thing that I learned from him as well as my parents was to be humble in victory and gracious in defeat and it seems to me that too many athletes have forgotten that simple credo.

[Redneck Ref]

I know a D1 official who told me last year that he was brought in to a Christmas tournament that Duke played in so Coach "K" could check him out to see if he was good enough to do the final 4 if Duke made it there. I think the politics have alot to do with when and where certain calls are made. Maybe if this had been somewhere else this would have been called different. We might not like it but certain coaches have the power on who does their games.

[NICK]

Please correct me if i am wrong. Reading the thread, it would seem that the player who dunked the ball and was doing the pushups was at the time holding the defensive player down with his legs. If there was contact, how you can you give a technical. I have always been taught that a technical foul was a no contact foul

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by NICK
Please correct me if i am wrong. Reading the thread, it would seem that the player who dunked the ball and was doing the pushups was at the time holding the defensive player down with his legs. If there was contact, how you can you give a technical. I have always been taught that a technical foul was a no contact foul

Contact during a dead ball can be a technical foul.