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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 12:03am
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Question

I was paging through Referee magazine's January edition, in the NASO area, and the following situation was analyzed:

Team A is behind by two in the closing seconds, and attempts a 3-point shot. B6 comes off the bench and blocks the attempt as time expires. The ruling (I believe it was 10.1.6, I may be wrong) was that you can't count the 3, but a technical is given to B6, and two shots are given to team A to attempt to tie the game. Which got me to thinking...

Here's my question. Let's say team A is down by 3, and the exact same thing happens. Then you wouldn't shoot the two technical foul shots, because they wouldn't affect the outcome of the game. Basically, B6 coming off the bench, blocking the shot, and only receiving a technical foul could in essence save the game for team B. Doesn't this seem wrong?
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 12:30am
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In football, this wouldn't happen.

The play is dead as soon as B enters the floor.

Put the appropriate time back on the clock, assess the T, and give A the ball at the division line.
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:04am
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Somewhere,back in the archives,is a very long thread from months ago on this very same situation.It was quite interesting,too,if I remember right.There were some very creative solutions brought up,so that the shooting team didn't get screwed.One was charging the bench player with 2 T's- one for standing during play(R10-4-1g) plus one for entering the court(R10-4-2).Also,if I remember right,if this happened in the NBA,you could award the 3 point goal.Maybe Mr. Elias could comment on that later.He's a closet NBA rules junky.

One thing to remember is that any rulings in Referee magazine are never definitive or binding.They are their opinions only,and they've been wrong before,so take them with a grain of salt.Only the NFHS,recognized state organizations,or the NCAA can give out approved rulings.
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Also,if I remember right,if this happened in the NBA,you could award the 3 point goal.Maybe Mr. Elias could comment on that later.He's a closet NBA rules junky.
Yup, that's right. You'd count the basket and issue a T.

But this is very unlikely to happen in a HS or college game, b/c at the end of the game, the teams are shooting in front of their own benches. So the opposing player would have to come from the backcourt, and hopefully, you'd see it and blow the whistle before he got the shooter.

Chuck
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 01:08pm
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Your penalizing the offense for the actions of the defense... You would have to give a REALLY long rope the coach of the offense if your going to handle it as recommended in the article...
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 02:19pm
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BktBallRef--

But there is no timing error here...how can you (within the rules) put time back on the clock?

I agree 100% that it seems the offended team is getting screwed, but other than catching it before the shot attempt, and hopefully with some time remaining on the clock, there's nothing much we can do, is there?
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 03:20pm
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ah yes...........

this play is not specifically covered by the rules. 2-3 could come into affect. my personal opinion is to score the basket and whack. it seems to be the only fair thing to do. a team shouldnt be able to win a game in the manner of coming off the bench and blocking the shot. though my theory is highly disputed on this forum, there is not much more of fair logic out there.

people have quoted the rules of BI and GT, but they do not cover someone coming off the bench.

another theory is to whack for having 6 players and whack for interference.

also you could call a foul (say he hit the arm) and then whack for 6 players on the court.

but over all the offending team should not be able to win unlees the offended team has a chance to recover by being compesated in some manner.
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TriggerMN
BktBallRef--

But there is no timing error here...how can you (within the rules) put time back on the clock?

I agree 100% that it seems the offended team is getting screwed, but other than catching it before the shot attempt, and hopefully with some time remaining on the clock, there's nothing much we can do, is there?
The play would not be dead until your whistle blew for the technical thus making it dead. The amount of time showing on the clock is what you would have to go with. A good point was made that in the second half the offensive team is shooting in front of their own bench so if this unlikely sitch happened hopefully you could catch it and penalize before the shot was actually blocked. I agree that assessing only 1 technical puts the offensive team at a severe disadvantage to loose the game if their is little time left. IMO a good way to solve this (when it never happens) in a FED game is:

A: There was contact. 1 T for entering the court (10.1.6) a second for "intentional" contact during a dead ball (10.3.9)result 4 shots and ball at division line.

B: Clean block. 1 T for entering w/ out reporting to scorers (10.2.1) another for 6 participating simultaneously (10.1.6) same result as above.

Crew says it is not specifically covered in the rules but I think you could make a pretty good case w/ above that it is...





[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 29th, 2003 at 02:22 PM]
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:11pm
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Last night

This situation happened with me and my partner last night but it was a little different,plus this was a Rec league game also.

Team A and Team B are tied and Team A is planning on taking the last shot. A1 gets an open look at a 3 and drains it with 4 seconds left. Team B inbounds the ball and races up the sideline. While this is going on Team A's bench is jumping up and down on the sidelines and one of their players accidently strolls onto the floor right in front of B1 while B1 is attempting a 3/4 court shot. BOOM! A collision occurs and B1 gets upset at A6. I race over to get in the middle then I confer with my partner. We make our decision and call both coaches..errrr..team representives over and explain what we are going to do.

We called a T on A6 for coming onto the floor without reporting and another one on the team for too many players on the floor. We awarded 4 free throws which, of course,B1 makes 3 of 4 sending the game into OT. Team A went onto win the game and after all was said and done both teams were appreciative of the way we handled things.

[Edited by dsimp8 on Jan 29th, 2003 at 04:13 PM]
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Old Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:43pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[B] IMO a good way to solve this (when it never happens) in a FED game is: [/i]
[B]

Unbelievable, dsimp has this happen lastnight???!!! wow handled correctly though!!!
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Old Thu Jan 30, 2003, 12:28am
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I have 1 T for coming onto the court without being beckoned, and 1 T for unsportsmanlike conduct (interfering with the play) - now the player has 2T's and is disqualified, and the coach is 2/3 of the way out the door.

I do agree with Tony that the clock should be set back to the time at which B6 entered the court.
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Old Thu Jan 30, 2003, 12:55am
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Quote:
Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by TriggerMN
BktBallRef--

But there is no timing error here...how can you (within the rules) put time back on the clock?

I agree 100% that it seems the offended team is getting screwed, but other than catching it before the shot attempt, and hopefully with some time remaining on the clock, there's nothing much we can do, is there?
The play would not be dead until your whistle blew for the technical thus making it dead.
That's not true.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16
The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

NF 6-7-7
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
A foul occurs.

When the player stepped onto the floor, the ball became dead, unless it was in flight.

2-5-5
The referee shall
Decide matters upon which the timers and scorers disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

2-3
The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

This play is not covered by the rules or the case book. It calls for extreme measures. I can certainly apply the first two rules in this situation, based on 2-3. It's certainly better than the suggestion to count the basket. There's no basis in the rules for that, whatsoever.

And, I don't disagree that 2 T's on B6 could be acceptable as well.
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Old Thu Jan 30, 2003, 01:41am
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Okay, so it's unlikely in HS or college, but simp pointed out a sitch where it did actually happen. Also, what could you do if it was a fan, or parent?
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Old Thu Jan 30, 2003, 09:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, so it's unlikely in HS or college, but simp pointed out a sitch where it did actually happen. Also, what could you do if it was a fan, or parent?
As an official, the only answers (none of them really good) are along the lines of what's been presented here.

But, you should also write the league administrator, state association or similar.

They can take action.
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Old Thu Jan 30, 2003, 12:46pm
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If it's a fan in a situation like that?
I've got one T for adding a player to the score book after the 10 minute mark. One T for entering without reporting. One T for 6 players on the floor. Can we give a T for a uniform violation? Up to 8 shots. I'm sure, after that, we can add a T to the coach for arguing with the call. (^:
All right, I'd probably just give them the score book T and the 6 players on the floor T. 4 shots.

snaqs
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