VISIBLE 5 SECOND COUNT

johnfox · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 12:34pm

IN HIGH SCHOOL 3 PERSON MECHANICS, DOES THE LEAD EVER HAVE A VISIBLE 5 SECOND CLOSELY GUARDED COUNT?

ScottParks · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 12:50pm

Not according to the camps that I've been to.

mick · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottParks
Not according to the camps that I've been to.

ScottParks,
So if the ball-handler and the defender are in the Lead's primary, then there is no five second count unless the Trail is counting?
I don't know that rule.
mick

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
So if the ball-handler and the defender are in the Lead's primary, then there is no five second count unless the Trail is counting?

I don't use 3-whistle for HS, but in NCAA we're taught that the Lead never has a closely-guarded count. The Trail is supposed to do it.

Chuck

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 02:33pm

The only count a Lead can have is a 3 second count. But obviously a 3 second count is not visible.

3 Person is designed so that 2 officials can be watching the ball. So the Trail would have a 5 second count in the Lead's area.

Peace

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottParks
Not according to the camps that I've been to.

ScottParks,
So if the ball-handler and the defender are in the Lead's primary, then there is no five second count unless the Trail is counting?
I don't know that rule.
mick

Scott is correct. The trail has the count when the ball is in the lead's primary. So much of this area is dual anyway, that it's not a problem.

mick · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 02:43pm

Okay! There's enough to do down there anyway.
I can make that work.
Thanks, Fellas.
mick

(How did that escape me?)

Kelvin green · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 05:27pm

What?

Did I miss something?
Trail has the 5 second count when lead has the ball in his primary??? I can see that now ball is outside the arc on lead's side closely guarded and the trail is making a 5 second count....

If trail is counting who is watching off ball? like right in the middle of the paint when the ball is out wide.

The ball is on myside of the paint and the guy is dribbling around. near the baseline. I am watching for pushes, hits on the arms, blocking, etc but not closely guarded? Naw dont think so... I am the one watching the ball and not the low post players at that point.

I am not going to ever try and explain to a coach that I had the five second count in front of my partner as trail. particularly when they have big guys in there. I dont have that much stock in ATT, QWEST, and MCI

There is not anything in the rules or officials manual that backs this up.

ScottParks · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 05:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
What?

Did I miss something?
Trail has the 5 second count when lead has the ball in his primary??? I can see that now ball is outside the arc on lead's side closely guarded and the trail is making a 5 second count....

If trail is counting who is watching off ball? like right in the middle of the paint when the ball is out wide.

The ball is on myside of the paint and the guy is dribbling around. near the baseline. I am watching for pushes, hits on the arms, blocking, etc but not closely guarded? Naw dont think so... I am the one watching the ball and not the low post players at that point.

I am not going to ever try and explain to a coach that I had the five second count in front of my partner as trail. particularly when they have big guys in there. I dont have that much stock in ATT, QWEST, and MCI

There is not anything in the rules or officials manual that backs this up.

For 3 whistle, trail has the count. It sounds like you're talking about 2 whistle games, where its not true.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 06:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
What?

Did I miss something?
Trail has the 5 second count when lead has the ball in his primary??? I can see that now ball is outside the arc on lead's side closely guarded and the trail is making a 5 second count....

If trail is counting who is watching off ball? like right in the middle of the paint when the ball is out wide.

The ball is on myside of the paint and the guy is dribbling around. near the baseline. I am watching for pushes, hits on the arms, blocking, etc but not closely guarded? Naw dont think so... I am the one watching the ball and not the low post players at that point.

I am not going to ever try and explain to a coach that I had the five second count in front of my partner as trail. particularly when they have big guys in there. I dont have that much stock in ATT, QWEST, and MCI

There is not anything in the rules or officials manual that backs this up.

3 Person is designed to have two officials watching the ball in most cases. If the ball is in the post (where the Lead's primary is) that is where most of the players are going to be and the action. The Center position is designed for off-ball coverage and backside help on calls that the Lead and Trail might miss. Only the C and the T have a five second count in HS mechanics. Women's CCA Mechanics is a little bit different, but they also have an entirely different coverage area. So things are going to be different if you are doing an NCAA game. But in NF and NCAA Men's games, the lead never has a count. The Lead has a very small area, and if the ball is in the post in the Lead's primary, chances are that it started in the Trail's area to begin with.

Just the way it is.

Peace

Kelvin green · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 27, 2003, 10:58pm

I'm talking two person crew... some of the previous posts suggest that in two person that lead does not have a five second count...

I dont do any three NF or NCAA around here but to not have the lead who may be closest to the play not counting is ridiculous. Even the NBA in the 5 second backdown rule has lead count.

BktBallRef · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 12:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
I'm talking two person crew... some of the previous posts suggest that in two person that lead does not have a five second count...

Not true. The entire post deals with 3 man mechanics.

Quote:

I dont do any three NF or NCAA around here but to not have the lead who may be closest to the play not counting is ridiculous. Even the NBA in the 5 second backdown rule has lead count.

Kelvin, the powers that be disagree with you. I've worked 3 man since 1989 and I've never seen/heard of the lead counting closely guarded.

Let me put it this way. What happens when the dribbler starts in the lead's primary and then dribbles out front, above the top of the key? Is the lead suppose to leave the baseline and follow him? Of couse not. But that's what's required of the T and C. Once they start a count, they have to follow the player until the count ends.

It's not difficult for the T to count as well as look through the play and see what's happening? There are two sets of eyes on the area. We're talking about a very small area where the T wouldn't ordinarily be officiating anyway. We're only talking about the area below the imaginary diagonal line that extends from the middle of the third FT space to the corner, inside the 3 pt. arc.

It's not that difficult to do.

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 03:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green
I dont do any three NF or NCAA around here but to not have the lead who may be closest to the play not counting is ridiculous. Even the NBA in the 5 second backdown rule has lead count.

Well Kevin, NCAA Women's and NBA Mechanics are much more alike with each other than NCAA Men's and NF Mechanics. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Lead in a 3 Person crew in CCA Men's and NF never has a 5 second count, nor a 3 point shot. Just two of the fundamentals of the mechanics. And the coverage area is quite differerent than the NBA and NCAA Women's Mechanics. I have been doing 3 Person for 7 years with a full schedule and have been to about 5 or 6 college or HS games camps each summer and I have never heard of the Lead having a count except for the CCA Women's Mechanic. Sorry, just the truth.

Peace

Nevadaref · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 04:42am

I have never heard of this before. So, I went and looked it up in the Officials Manual. I can only find two relevant statements.
302. (page 47) All officials should maintain the semblance of a wide triangle coverage of the court and fundamentally they should be moving into the proper positions each time there is a change in possession of the ball (but should never turn their backs to the ball). The Center or Trail official, who has a five-second closely-guarded count in the frontcourt, must step onto the court and go with the dribbler even toward the other side official's area of responsibility, showing that he/she still has the initial count and that the offensive player is still closely-guarded.

Diagram 28 (page 50) Each official has an area of primary coverage for fouls and violations on and off the ball in that area. When ball is not in primary area, take all players in your area. Dual coverage is indicated. Officials must always be aware of location of ball, players and other officials.
(BTW, who wrote that caption? Take a grammar course, please!)

The first could certainly be understood to say that the Lead is not to have a closely-guarded count. However, the second would imply that he does.
I guess you should follow what your assignor says. I am grateful to the board for teaching me something new today!

JRutledge · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 04:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I have never heard of this before. So, I went and looked it up in the Officials Manual. I can only find two relevant statements.
302. (page 47) All officials should maintain the semblance of a wide triangle coverage of the court and fundamentally they should be moving into the proper positions each time there is a change in possession of the ball (but should never turn their backs to the ball). The Center or Trail official, who has a five-second closely-guarded count in the frontcourt, must step onto the court and go with the dribbler even toward the other side official's area of responsibility, showing that he/she still has the initial count and that the offensive player is still closely-guarded.

Diagram 28 (page 50) Each official has an area of primary coverage for fouls and violations on and off the ball in that area. When ball is not in primary area, take all players in your area. Dual coverage is indicated. Officials must always be aware of location of ball, players and other officials.
(BTW, who wrote that caption? Take a grammar course, please!)

The first could certainly be understood to say that the Lead is not to have a closely-guarded count. However, the second would imply that he does.
I guess you should follow what your assignor says. I am grateful to the board for teaching me something new today!

It clearly says that the C and the T have the five second count. Just because they say in the next caption, does not mean that you would have 5 seconds just because they said the officials have all violations and fouls in their primary. In other words, they have everything else. But as Tony said, the Lead cannot have a five second count and follow that count all the way to the division line. That just does not make any sense. The Lead's area is designated for low post and paint coverage. It is not designed for coverage all over the court or extended coverage like two person has.

Peace