correctable error

[hawkk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by williebfree
[B]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m


Unfortunately, TWO officials let this one slide WAY TOO LONG..... and it would be an extremely difficult position to take.
Comments?

I kinda think once you've got 7 seconds gone by it looks a lot more like Fletch's No. than No. 2 . . . In No. 2, obviously, one would hope that the whistle would get blown long before the ball made it to the other end of the court . . . but if the official chops the clock, both officials follow the play down court and signal a good basket, and signal the end of the quarter, then I think, despite the unfairness, the rules require use of the correctable error rule because that is exactly what happened: the officials made a correctable (and terribly embarassing) error. (And I do agree that in No. 2, the result is not particularly fair.)

[BktBallRef]

A simliar play was discussed on the NFHS board. A case play does exist, but I don't think it's all encompassing. In the play described, I would propbably go with the correctable error, per the case book. But what if B simply dribbles down the court and with 5 or 3 or 1 second(s) left, one of the officials realizes we should have shot 2?


http://www.nfhs.org/Forum/nfhs/Forum3/HTML/000678.html

[williebfree]

After thorough mental debate (this lasted about .03 nanoseconds ), I have decided this:

Put seven second on the clock clearing the lane for the 2nd shot and then (Made or missed FT) award the ball to B on the endline. IMO, this is the most appropriate solution.

UNLESS Team A did not compete for the rebound on the 1st FT. Then I would go with seven seconds, and play-on with the 2nd FT.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

[hawkk]

Originally posted by williebfree


Put seven second on the clock clearing the lane for the 2nd shot and then (Made or missed FT) award the ball to B on the endline. IMO, this is the most appropriate solution.

Hmm. Is there any conceiveable rule basis for that?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by williebfree
After thorough mental debate (this lasted about .03 nanoseconds ), I have decided this:

Put seven second on the clock clearing the lane for the 2nd shot and then (Made or missed FT) award the ball to B on the endline. IMO, this is the most appropriate solution.

UNLESS Team A did not compete for the rebound on the 1st FT. Then I would go with seven seconds, and play-on with the 2nd FT.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.

With all due respect: WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Read my post of Jan. 22, 2003, 02:50pm. This is a correctable error than can be corrected. The error was discovered before the dead ball/live ball/clock requirements expired. The rules specifically state that it is a point of interruption correction. NO time is to be put back on the clock.

Lotto in his posting of Jan. 22, 2003, 08:20pm gives an NCAA Men's/Women's Approved Ruling that covers this play. I do not have my rules books in front of me but is also an NFHS Casebook Play for the situation that started this thread as well as a FIBA Casebook Play and the results of all three are the same; the definition of a correctable error in the FIBA rules book is the same, word for word, as the definition in the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules. If fact the only difference in all three codes is how the NFHS handles the correction if there was no change of possession.

Furthermore, the fact that the period ended and then the correctable error was discovered has no bearing on the play. Lets look at the play point by point.

1) Two free throws were awarded.

2) Only one free throw was shot and it was missed.

3) By rule the first free throw of a multiple throw situation becomes dead when the free throw is either made or when it is obvious that it is not successful.

4) In this situation the officials made two errors: 1) not awarding the second free throw (the correctable error) and 2) allowing the ball to remain "live" (not a correctable error).

5) When the "live" ball (the missed free throw) was touched by a player on the court, the clock stopped.

6) The ball then remained live for the remainder of the period.

7) When the period ended the ball became dead. This was the first dead ball after the clock had started after the error.

8) The error was then discovered before the ball became live after the first dead ball after the clock had started after the error. Therefore, the correctable error was discovered during the allowable time frame and therefore could be corrected by A1 shooting one free throw with no players occupying spaces along the free throw lane.

9) The time period to correct this error would end when the next period starts under the following situations: a) If the next period is to start with an AP throw-in, when the ball would be placed at the disposal of the team (who has the AP arrow) for the throw-in. b) If the next period is to start with a jump ball, when the ball leaves the hands of the official who is conducting the jump ball (NFHS and FIBA: the Referee; NCAA Men's/Women's: the Referee or his/her designee). c) If there is a technical foul during the dead ball period between the end of playing time of the previous period and the start of next period, when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free throw shooter for the first free throw.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I made a typo below in Item (5). At the end of the sentence it should read: the clock started.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

With all due respect: WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Read my post of Jan. 22, 2003, 02:50pm. This is a correctable error than can be corrected. The error was discovered before the dead ball/live ball/clock requirements expired. The rules specifically state that it is a point of interruption correction. NO time is to be put back on the clock.

Lotto in his posting of Jan. 22, 2003, 08:20pm gives an NCAA Men's/Women's Approved Ruling that covers this play. I do not have my rules books in front of me but is also an NFHS Casebook Play for the situation that started this thread as well as a FIBA Casebook Play and the results of all three are the same; the definition of a correctable error in the FIBA rules book is the same, word for word, as the definition in the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules. If fact the only difference in all three codes is how the NFHS handles the correction if there was no change of possession.

Furthermore, the fact that the period ended and then the correctable error was discovered has no bearing on the play. Lets look at the play point by point.

1) Two free throws were awarded.

2) Only one free throw was shot and it was missed.

3) By rule the first free throw of a multiple throw situation becomes dead when the free throw is either made or when it is obvious that it is not successful.

4) In this situation the officials made two errors: 1) not awarding the second free throw (the correctable error) and 2) allowing the ball to remain "live" (not a correctable error).

5) When the "live" ball (the missed free throw) was touched by a player on the court, the clock stopped.

6) The ball then remained live for the remainder of the period.

7) When the period ended the ball became dead. This was the first dead ball after the clock had started after the error.

8) The error was then discovered before the ball became live after the first dead ball after the clock had started after the error. Therefore, the correctable error was discovered during the allowable time frame and therefore could be corrected by A1 shooting one free throw with no players occupying spaces along the free throw lane.

9) The time period to correct this error would end when the next period starts under the following situations: a) If the next period is to start with an AP throw-in, when the ball would be placed at the disposal of the team (who has the AP arrow) for the throw-in. b) If the next period is to start with a jump ball, when the ball leaves the hands of the official who is conducting the jump ball (NFHS and FIBA: the Referee; NCAA Men's/Women's: the Referee or his/her designee). c) If there is a technical foul during the dead ball period between the end of playing time of the previous period and the start of next period, when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free throw shooter for the first free throw. [/B]

[hawkk]

Mark sets it all forth pretty clearly. But a follow up Q:

Let's assume this was the end of the fourth quarter, and (until the error is noticed) the score ends up tied. The error is noticed after the break before the OT, as the ref is walking out for the center jump. Is the FT part of the 4th Q (i.e. the game is over if the player makes the basket -- which, of course, would infuriate the other team since they would have gone for a 3 if they knew they were down by 3 rather than 2), or is part of OT (which, of course, would infuriate the team forced to play OT since they center jump with a one point lead making OT seem silly).

(My gut tells me it's the first option, but am curious what the experts think, and am wondering if y'all have flak jackers for either of those scenarios?)

[Dan_ref]

If you haven't read the thread posted by Tony (BktBallRef)
do so, he makes an excellent argument for why this should NOT be a 2-10 correctable error which hinges on 2 things:

1- the ball remains dead after the first of multiple FT's.
2- This is an error by the defense, no different than when the offense takes the ball OOB after a made basket.

Here it is:

Tony's Post

I disagree. This is not "failure to award a merited FT." This is a misttake by the defense. If the administering official indicated that it was a two shot situation, the the ball becomes dead after the FT. It doesn't become live just because B grabs the ball and dribbles down court. The only thing you have is possibly a technical foul on B for delay of game, if you rule that the defense did this intentionally, which I woulkd be reluctant to do unless they did it more than once.
Now, if the official indicates 1 shot or 1 & 1 and this same scenario occurs, then this is a correctable error situation, the lane would be cleared for the shot, and B would get the ball back. But the poster said it was a 2 shot sitch. The question is, "How many FTs did the official indicate?"

This is no different than a situation where a team scores a basket, grabs the ball out of the basket, completes a throw-in and scores again or in a situation where the official places the ball on the floor and the wrong team grabs it and inbounds it. The situations are correctable but are not correctable errors because they are not official's errors. They are errors committed by a team who mistakenly thought they were entitled to the ball.

Do you see my point? If you allow B to keep the ball in this sitaution, then you allow then to rebound a first miss of a 2 shot foul at anytime, dribble up the floor and keep the ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by hawkk
Mark sets it all forth pretty clearly. But a follow up Q:

Let's assume this was the end of the fourth quarter, and (until the error is noticed) the score ends up tied. The error is noticed after the break before the OT, as the ref is walking out for the center jump. Is the FT part of the 4th Q (i.e. the game is over if the player makes the basket -- which, of course, would infuriate the other team since they would have gone for a 3 if they knew they were down by 3 rather than 2), or is part of OT (which, of course, would infuriate the team forced to play OT since they center jump with a one point lead making OT seem silly).

(My gut tells me it's the first option, but am curious what the experts think, and am wondering if y'all have flak jackers for either of those scenarios?)

The rules specifically state the no penalty can carry over to the next period. Since the error was discovered within the allowable time frame the game is over if A1 makes his free throw.