T for two...

oatmealqueen · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 12:05pm

Got to watch a game, for a change. Sitch during 4th quarter occured. Fed. Boys HS.
Team A in bonus. Common foul by team B.
B1 objects to official with profanity and assessed T.
A1 then pipes in and whack, another T.
Officials huddle for an incredible 13 minutes and come to this conclusion:
Clear the lane - fouled player A1 shoots bonus/alternating possession ensues.
Good? Bad? Ugly?

BigJoe · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 12:24pm

I will go with the bad and the ugly! This definitely doesn't fall under the double technical foul definition 4-19-7b. They should have cleared the lane and shot the fouls in the order they occurred. Now I agree with going to the possession arrow, rule 8-1-10, as to who gets the ball since there was a technical against both teams. I hope A1 got some choice words from the coach after that bonehead move. Cost the team possibly two points on the free throws and the ball.

fletch_irwin_m · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 01:38pm

Would this be similar to a Flagrant by Team A followed by a T for Team B? In that case you would administer in the order they occured. It would seem to me in this situation that Team A shots the common fouls followed by the T. Then Team B would shoot the T and receive the ball out of bounds WITHOUT going to the arrow. The T by team A would negate their receiving the ball at mid court.
This would seem to be the way to handle it in order of occurence under NF rules. NCAA would be different with POI inbounds after the two "T"'s.

iref21 · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 02:33pm

In my opinion what they did was GOOD! Let's take a look at the big picture. Foul, Technical, Technical! (same dead ball sequence)

In this situation if you assess double technical fouls you are not hurting the game. The foul shots are award for the foul that occured. In the BIG PICTURE, the technical fouls mean nothing. If we were to shoot them it would be nothing but a waste of time. Sometimes officiating to pure can do nothing but complicate the game.

oatmealqueen · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 03:00pm

I tend to agree with fletch.. but.. still pondering.

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 03:56pm

There's only two ways that you could possibly call this,IMO:
1)If you call the 2 T's "simultaneous technical fouls" as per 4-19-9,Team A would shoot their original bonus with the lanes clear,the FT's for the simultaneous T's would not be taken,and you'd go to to the AP.
2)Because of the time lag between the 2 T's,you decide that the two T's don't fit the definition of "simultaneous". You now take everything in order,but you count the 2 T's as being both parts of a false double foul as per R4-19-8.You now have a personal foul,FOLLOWED by a false double foul(made up of the 2 T's).You then administer everything in order that they occured.Thus, A finishes the original bonus,then A shoots 2 FT's for B's T,followed by B shooting 2 FT's for A's T,followed by B getting the ball at center because A's T happened last.

My personal preference is #2 because of the time lag between the T's and the fact that they're not really part of the same play.Also,if I remember right, there was a casebook play many,many moons ago that discussed a personal foul,followed by two more fouls-and they said that you considered the last two fouls as a false double foul by themselves.

oatmealqueen · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 04:46pm

checking 4-19-8&9, I believe that the "simultaneous" or "double" types of T's just do not apply.
Thanks JR -- What really stands out about the play is the time lag and seemingly unreleated fouls.

DownTownTonyBrown · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 05:01pm

A FALSE double has shots - one situation (foul) has ended, the clock has not started, another situation (foul) occurs. This could be the case.

Double and simultaneous T's each have the same result - no shots and AP at the division line. A double foul situation would be A1 against B1 - they commit the T's against each other, not at slightly different times and not towards the referee. This was not a double foul situation. Simultaneous are not two opponents against each other but two separate fouls occurring at nearly the same time. Was it simultaneous? Maybe.

Not knowing what was said makes it difficult to say yes False double or yes simultaneous.

Were both comments about the play for which the original personal foul was called? If yes, then probably simultaneous (no shots, AP at the division line).

If there was a significant lag (like the first foul is in the process of being reported when the second one is committed). This lag could be the same case as a false double - two separate fouls with no time off the clock (both teams shoot shots and whichever team shoots the last one gets the ball at the division line. No AP).

Sounds like the officials felt it was a simultaneous foul siituation - both unsporting comments about the previous play and no significant time delay between them (JR's option # 1).

BigJoe · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 05:40pm

I guess that this whole discussion comes down to whether or not we deem the T's to be simultaneous or not. If they are, which when I made my post I didn't think so, we go with JR and no shots. If we don't then we have to penalize each foul on its own merits. It would then be a false double foul. Now upon further review, we don't go to the arrow, we give the ball to B on the division line for throw in since none of the paramaters are met in rule 6-3. I think in this situation, if you go with simultaneous T's then the kid who last committed the T won't get the message like he would if team A shoots two and gets the ball. It may be easier for the officials to call it simultaneous, but do the kids learn anything?

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 06:26pm

Either way, it's a false double foul. A foul occurs and another foul(s) occurs before the clock restarts. This part is a given.

The rule book really doesn't address what time limitations exist for simultaneous fouls to occur. By rule, I think you could chose either of JR's scenarios and be on solid ground.

oatmealqueen · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 06:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Either way, it's a false double foul. A foul occurs and another foul(s) occurs before the clock restarts. This part is a given.

The rule book really doesn't address what time limitations exist for simultaneous fouls to occur. By rule, I think you could chose either of JR's scenarios and be on solid ground.

Agreed.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 18, 2003, 08:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
Got to watch a game, for a change. Sitch during 4th quarter occured. Fed. Boys HS.
Team A in bonus. Common foul by team B.
B1 objects to official with profanity and assessed T.
A1 then pipes in and whack, another T.
Officials huddle for an incredible 13 minutes and come to this conclusion:
Clear the lane - fouled player A1 shoots bonus/alternating possession ensues.
Good? Bad? Ugly?

I do not have my rules books in front of me but here is how this situation should have been handled.

NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules: This is a false double foul situation. First, a common foul by B1. Second, a techincal foul for unsportsmanlike conduct by B1. Third, a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct by A1.

NFHS: A1 shoots his free throws for the common foul by B1 with no one along the free throw lane. Then anyone from Team A shoots the free throws for the techincal foul by B1. Then anyone shoots the free throws for the technical foul by A1. And finally, Team B gets the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer's/timer's table as part of the penalty for the technical by A1.

NCAA Men's/Women's: The technical foul penalties are point of interuption penalties. First, Team A shoots the free throws for B1's technical foul. Second, Team B shoots the free throws for A1's techncical foul. Third, A1 shoots his free throws for B1's common foul, with players lined up along the lane, with the ball remaining in play after the last of A1's free throws.