Foul Shot

[fisherj]

I know this is never going to happen. The problem is it did.

Coach instructed his players not to assume the first two lane spaces as required by the rules. Way to much time was spent explaining to the coach it was not an option.

What do you do. (Technical, and who is it on), (Violation and let them shoot until they make it).

[BktBallRef]

Unless it's a resuming play situation, it's a technical foul.

[zebraman]

Never say never. :-)

It would be a "T," but I'm not 100% sure of what kind. I'd tend to make it a direct (unsportsmanlike) on the coach. Could possibly be just a "team" T too. I don't see that technical foul specifically addressed on the Technical Foul Penalty Summary on page 72 of the NFHS rule book.

Z

[NCAAREF]

Why a T and for what? It's strictly a violation. Held whistle and keep shooting until they make both shots. Now after they make both shots, if you want to call a T for unsportman like conduct on the coach, maybe you can but I think that is giving in to him or her. I would just resume play.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Why a T and for what? It's strictly a violation. Held whistle and keep shooting until they make both shots. Now after they make both shots, if you want to call a T for unsportman like conduct on the coach, maybe you can but I think that is giving in to him or her. I would just resume play.

Because it is not an option to not have 2 players occupying the inside spots on a free throw and the coach is refusing to put them there. If you're in the "resuming play situation," you might not have a T. But this is not a resuming play situation. See Case Book 10.1.5 Situation C (part B).

Z

[Ridge Wiz]

NFHS,
Rules book. Pg 49. 8-1-c. Following a violation by one or by both teams, if that team(s) continue to delay it is a technical foul.

Case book. Pg 57. 8.1.1 situation B: B1 fouls A1 during an unsuccessful try for goal. The calling official has properly reported the foul & is in position for the free throws. The administering official has given all instructions & signals. Team B is properly occupying the required spaces, but 3 teammates of A1 are huddling inside the lane. (this is what happened to me; coach called them to the side of the floor for an extra quick TO). Ruling: Team A is warned for delay, the scorer records it & it is reported to the head coach. If Team A delays similarly thereafter in the game, a technical foul shall be charged.

I cannot find any ruling about player/team/bench or direct/indirect application of the T.

What did I do in my game?? Nothing, because the coach of the free thrower never complained and both teams vacated the lane. The first free throw looked like the first of a T. Both teams got at least two players respectively in the lane positions for the 2nd free throw. This was during a very heated, no-love-loss, nearby town game. It was a middle school game. My partner was not an "association" official. I think I was the only one in the gym who knew the difference until I told my partner that the opponent was in the wrong but I was not sure of the penalty so I let it go. I later told the violating coach that he was in the wrong. Now that I know the correct penalty I will enforced the rule when (not if) it happens again. I'm sure it will happen again.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Not sure but I think this is an administrative technical foul. Adds to team bonus but not charged to HC.

However if you ruled the coach was doing this intentionally then it could be unsporting technical to HC. Direct to him adds to team total counts toward ejection.

Just my thoughts.

[Ridge Wiz]

I agree on both situations you give.

The administrative T section has; "violation after team warning for delay".

On the otherhand, if you have a coach who is a howler monkey & you think he is being unsporting with the delay, give him the unsporting T.

[NCAAREF]

Look at your casebook example again. It says the defense is in the proper lane spaces but the shooting team is huddling, thus delaying the administering of the FT's. This is a different scenario then what was described. Under this scenario I might agree, warning and T the second time if it is pretty obvious to me what they are delaying on purpose. It's not a delay for the defense not to be there, it is a violation the way I interpret it.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Ridge Wiz
I agree on both situations you give.

The administrative T section has; "violation after team warning for delay".

On the otherhand, if you have a coach who is a howler monkey & you think he is being unsporting with the delay, give him the unsporting T.

Reading my mind!!!!

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Look at your casebook example again. It says the defense is in the proper lane spaces but the shooting team is huddling, thus delaying the administering of the FT's. This is a different scenario then what was described. Under this scenario I might agree, warning and T the second time if it is pretty obvious to me what they are delaying on purpose. It's not a delay for the defense not to be there, it is a violation the way I interpret it.

NCAA:

You are correct if the offense is huddling it is a delay warning similar to the defense reaching over the endline on a throw in. (CB8.1.1) First offense warning recorded and coach notified. 2nd and subsequent administrative technical foul adds to team total nothing assesed to coach.

As far as the defense not being in the assigned lane spaces this is a requirement to a "valid" free throw Rule 8-1-3a.
CB 10.1.5 outlines the procedure for when B fails to occupy required lane spaces. The free throw is adminisstered w/ defensive violation. A1 misses and substitute throw is givin if B is not occupying spaces for substitute throw, it is a technical foul for delay. It is very similar to the offensive delay where they are givin a warning first. This warning being the violation. I suppose if A hits both free throws on the first attempt the ball is then placed at B's disposal and a five second violation could be whistled.
At this point it could be reasonably assumed that B is attempting to make a travesty of the game (probably realized before this) and the referee has authorization to forfeit play (5.4.1)

PS rule 10.1.5 states that a technical may be called on either team if that team attempts to allow the game to develop into an actionless contest. This is the rationalle behind the above rules.

Sorry so long but I think this explaines rationalle pretty well. (I'm outta breath...)

[zebraman]

Unless the original situation described was after a quarter or a time-out (resuming play), then by rule it is a technical foul on team B. I already cited case 10.1.5 Situation C (item B) so now I'll type it:

The calling official has reported the foul at the table and proceeds to the free throw lane area to administer the first of two free throws awarded to A1. Two B players are no occupying the two marked spaces next to the end line as required. Team B will be directed to occupy the required spaces. If there is delay, a technical foul shall be charged to Team B.

In the case above, there is even additional ammunition to penalize since the coach is being a horses patootie and refusing to comply. :-)

Z

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by fisherj
I know this is never going to happen. The problem is it did.

Coach instructed his players not to assume the first two lane spaces as required by the rules. Way to much time was spent explaining to the coach it was not an option.

What do you do. (Technical, and who is it on), (Violation and let them shoot until they make it).

I am not sure if I am following this thread correctly, but it seems to me that the consensus is leaning toward the opinion that when the coach instructs his two players not to occupy the first two spots is subject to delay of game warning concerning huddling during freethrows. This is INCORRECT.

Unless the resume play rule is in effect, the two lane spaces must be occupied by members of the non-shooting team and CANNOT be occupied by a members of the shooting team. If a member of the non-shooting team refuses to occupy one of the required lane spaces, that player has committed a delay of game technical foul. If the coach of the non-shooting team causes his players from occupying the first lane spaces he has committed a delay of game techincal foul.

[Ridge Wiz]

Re: Mark

I think you are following this thread correctly. In my situation team B (defense) coach called all of his players to the side for a team discussion. Just like some coaches will call one or two players to their bench for a quick discussion while the free throw is administered. When team A (offense) coach saw what was happening he just called all players, except the shooter, to his side for the same thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong; If I understand the rule correctly, the defense gets a warning for delay. Then if the defense does not put a player in each first lane position, you give the defense a T. And in my sitch. I should give the coach a direct T because he was the one who ordered the players to his side.

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am not sure if I am following this thread correctly, but it seems to me that the consensus is leaning toward the opinion that when the coach instructs his two players not to occupy the first two spots is subject to delay of game warning concerning huddling during freethrows. This is INCORRECT.

Unless the resume play rule is in effect, the two lane spaces must be occupied by members of the non-shooting team and CANNOT be occupied by a members of the shooting team. If a member of the non-shooting team refuses to occupy one of the required lane spaces, that player has committed a delay of game technical foul. If the coach of the non-shooting team causes his players from occupying the first lane spaces he has committed a delay of game techincal foul.

The good news is since it is a T you don't have to worry about filling those spaces!