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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 07:19am
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After finishing my JV game (girls, using modified NCAA rules), I was watching the varsity refs to pick up some pointers. A1 had the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and B1 is guarding A1, waving her arms all over creation. Ref warns B1 not to reach over the line. Next thing you know...smack! B1 hits A1 on the arm.

Ref called a T. I just checked the book, and that's not right---should have been intentional personal. Funny that hitting the ball is T but hitting the player is only intentional personal...

I'll probably never see this again, but I'll be ready if it happens in my game.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 07:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
After finishing my JV game (girls, using modified NCAA rules), I was watching the varsity refs to pick up some pointers. A1 had the ball out of bounds for a throw-in and B1 is guarding A1, waving her arms all over creation. Ref warns B1 not to reach over the line. Next thing you know...smack! B1 hits A1 on the arm.

Ref called a T. I just checked the book, and that's not right---should have been intentional personal. Funny that hitting the ball is T but hitting the player is only intentional personal...

I'll probably never see this again, but I'll be ready if it happens in my game.
Lotto,
Could the "T" have been for breaking the plane after being warned?
mick
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 08:07am
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Mick

But was the "warning" just a verbal directive to the player at the throw-in spot or was it a warning that was clearly communicated to the coach, and scorer and recorded? (R4-46)

"A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official [b[which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach..."
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 08:09am
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As you pointed out the proper call is an intentional personal foul. While the penalty is approximately the same for an intentional and a technical foul, (2 shots and the ball with only the location of the subsequent throw-in being different) I believe there is a significant distinction between these calls and that it is important for the official to assess the proper foul.
That distinction is which player shoots the free throws. If the proper intentional foul is called the player making the throw-in must shoot, if the official erroneously calls a T, then this allows the team to have anyone shoot and that can be a big advantage.
Plus if this player has already committed or later commits a technical foul, he is disqualified and that is even more important.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Funny that hitting the ball is T but hitting the player is only intentional personal...
Not really.

A technical foul, by rule, is limited to non-contact or dead ball contact fouls.

A personal foul, by rule, is limited to live-ball contact fouls.

During a throw-in, the ball is live, so contact with the inbounder must be a personal. Similarly, you can't have a personal foul for merely touching the ball (it's impossible to foul the ball), so that violation of the rules must result in a technical foul.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 09:42am
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I admit I did not know that this was not a T. What if the defender reaches across and merely touches (does not foul) the thrower-inner? You are going to call an intentional personal? I am not going to ignore it, I would lean towards the T.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 09:51am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref

Plus if this player has already committed or later commits a technical foul, he is disqualified and that is even more important.

...Unless the "T" came for breaking the plane. Then, the "T" is only a Team Foul. ;-)
mick
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:12am
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As Mick has stated

IF the Technical was called for breaking the plane then it CAN be a technical and not a personal.

Let me make it more clear.

Let's say that the official warns B1 to "not violate" the plane of the end line.

Let's say that B1 reaches through the plane yet again and touches A1 . . .

The official "could" say that the ball became dead as soon as B1 broke the plane and therefore the contact AFTER that was incidental.

Please correct me if this interpretation is wrong.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:26am
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Re: As Mick has stated

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
IF the Technical was called for breaking the plane then it CAN be a technical and not a personal.

Let me make it more clear.

Let's say that the official warns B1 to "not violate" the plane of the end line.

Let's say that B1 reaches through the plane yet again and touches A1 . . .

The official "could" say that the ball became dead as soon as B1 broke the plane and therefore the contact AFTER that was incidental.

Please correct me if this interpretation is wrong.
I would agree Tim, if the official had given the warning, but what if it happens this way the first time? Before any warning, B1 reaches across and barely touche A's arm.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:32am
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Re: Re: As Mick has stated

Quote:
Originally posted by devdog69
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
IF the Technical was called for breaking the plane then it CAN be a technical and not a personal.

Let me make it more clear.

Let's say that the official warns B1 to "not violate" the plane of the end line.

Let's say that B1 reaches through the plane yet again and touches A1 . . .

The official "could" say that the ball became dead as soon as B1 broke the plane and therefore the contact AFTER that was incidental.

Please correct me if this interpretation is wrong.
I would agree Tim, if the official had given the warning, but what if it happens this way the first time? Before any warning, B1 reaches across and barely touche A's arm.
devdog69,
Then, we get to judge the contact and the penalize accordingly.
mick

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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:34am
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Meaning what, Mick? That you would call it an intentional personal? or ignore it? I'm not following what you meant. I would call a T in this sitch, just me, might be wrong, but I am not going to call a touch and intentional personal foul.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:48am
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Anyone who refs for a period of time will see this occur off and on.

Here's how I think the NFHS are meant to be enforced:

1) If B1 reaches over the boundry plane, the team gets a warning (official, to coach and in the book). Little verbal "suggestions" by the ref do not count. However, if he touches the BALL, B1 gets a T, no warning. Table and coach will get the official warning after this occurs, if they didn't already have a warning. Also, if there are 5 seconds or less in the game then no warning is required.

2) If anyone from team B later reaches through the boundary plane (after a warning), then a T must be assessed to team B. Without touching the ball, it is a team T. If ball is touched, it is a T on the offending player.

3) If B1 reaches through the plane and FOULS (touches) A1, this is an intentional personal foul. No warning for the delay required. Two shots for A1, throw-in at spot of foul. The only thing I am not clear on is if the severity of the touch matters. I believe just touching A1 is a foul (it doesn't have to be a hit or slap, etc. because B1 is causing a delay).

NOTE: If A1 is holding the ball over the line (in-bounds side), then B1 may touch (grab, slap) the ball without penalty.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 12:34pm
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Re: As Mick has stated

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim C
IF the Technical was called for breaking the plane then it CAN be a technical and not a personal.

Let me make it more clear.

Let's say that the official warns B1 to "not violate" the plane of the end line.

Let's say that B1 reaches through the plane yet again and touches A1 . . .

The official "could" say that the ball became dead as soon as B1 broke the plane and therefore the contact AFTER that was incidental.

Please correct me if this interpretation is wrong.
OK,that interpretation is wrong.That is neither the purpose or intent of the rules.There are separate rules for breaking the plane with no contact,breaking the plane and making contact on the ball,and breaking the plane and making contact with the player.Each rule has it's own,different penalty-and never the twain shall meet. Marty Roger's post has the correct procedures.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 12:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by devdog69
Meaning what, Mick? That you would call it an intentional personal? or ignore it? I'm not following what you meant. I would call a T in this sitch, just me, might be wrong, but I am not going to call a touch and intentional personal foul.
devdog69,
If defender reaches over the line and makes contact with in-thrower, I get to choose to:
  • 1. Warn and report to table and partner
  • 2. Call an intentional Foul
  • 3. Say, "Don't do that anymore."

    I get judge which punishment, if any, will be justified in my mind.
    Certainly, #3 is "lower level" dependent.
    mick
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    Old Mon Dec 23, 2002, 01:01pm
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    Two years ago in the weekend rec league I play in, one of the opponents is a guy who also works as a high school ref. We are up by 2 or 4 with about 30 seconds left, and I am inbounding near midcourt. He's trying to pressure, and reaches across the plane. Official gives him the warning. We repeat the throw in. He's still pressuring, so I fake a pass up the sideline. As he lunges, he steps right on the line, and as fast as I can point at it, the official calls a technical foul. I'm pretty sure he is still trying to live it down to this day!
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