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[rockyroad]

I think some of us have a lower cut-off level than others when it comes to dealing with the "yeah, but" guys like Randy. I admire both Snaqs and JR's attempts to work with the guy. I never even bothered to get involved with these discussions because I was through with the guy after reading his first three posts...maybe Jeff or BITS can get through to the guy, but I seriously doubt even they can.

[tref]

It aint for everybody...

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tref

It aint for everybody...

Breathing, that is.

[RandyBrown]

If the frustrated among you would relax your attitudes, rid yourselves of the need to indoctrinate others, you would avoid all of that frustation. What's with the need to have others agree with you--"my way or the highway"? Why not just say it how you see it, and be fine if not everyone agrees?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

If the frustrated among you would relax your attitudes, rid yourselves of the need to indoctrinate others, you would avoid all of that frustation. What's with the need to have others agree with you--"my way or the highway"? Why not just say it how you see it, and be fine if not everyone agrees?

Because words have meanings.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Because words have meanings.

That, and it's not about getting someone to agree with us in some sort of "my way or the highway" crap. Again, the mantra of the yabut guy.
It's about explaining the basics of what makes a competent official above the middle school or rec league level.

If he wants to just guess at what contact is a foul or not, fine. If he wants to move up, then it might better serve him to actually figure out the logic and reasoning behind the decisions.

Or he can keep on keeping on.

[APG]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

If the frustrated among you would relax your attitudes, rid yourselves of the need to indoctrinate others, you would avoid all of that frustation. What's with the need to have others agree with you--"my way or the highway"? Why not just say it how you see it, and be fine if not everyone agrees?

Let me ask you, is the sky blue? Is water wet? Does man need oxygen to survive? Feel like everyone has been trying to indoctrinate me with the same answers.

Again, you're a second year official and you're arguing with a collection of those that have many many times the experience and knowledge of you? Thirty years of playing rec ball and watching basketball doesn't make you an expert on matters of officiating. If that were true, than all ex-NBA players would be NBA officials when the matter of the fact is there's only a handful.

[tref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Thirty years of playing rec ball and watching basketball doesn't make you an expert on matters of officiating.

Worked with a varsity assistant coach a while back. Since he was blowing my line & calling across the paint, I asked:
1. If he has a book.
2. If he planned on attending a camp or taking the test.

He said he played ball all his life plus he coaches, so "he's good to go."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Worked with a varsity assistant coach a while back. Since he was blowing my line & calling across the paint, I asked:
1. If he has a book.
2. If he planned on attending a camp or taking the test.

He said he played ball all his life plus he coaches, so "he's good to go."

And the worst part is, now he gets to add, "I ref too," when acting like an idiot during the game.

[APG]

Originally Posted by tref

Worked with a varsity assistant coach a while back. Since he was blowing my line & calling across the paint, I asked:
1. If he has a book.
2. If he planned on attending a camp or taking the test.

He said he played ball all his life plus he coaches, so "he's good to go."

Got to love it...

Now I'm not going to act like knowing the game can't help one be a better official then say...someone who has no idea about the game. There's a reason I would never officiate volleyball (insert joke here), because I have no idea what a lift looks like. As long as you don't catch the ball, I'd be play on to me...and I'd be wrong probably 80 percent of the time.

But on the other hand, I'm also not going to claim indoctrination when nearly everyone has told me something is an absolute, and I don't agree with it.

"Yeah, but!"

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I can certainly see how this is frustrating...to me, it's just like the "yeah but" official who doesn't take advice from officials that have been doing this a lot longer then they have....especially on a rule that is crystal clear. I can't for the mind of me understand how someone in their second year of officiating can try and debate this much on matters such as philosophy, mechanics, and rules. Thirty years of playing rec ball and watching basketball just doesn't cut it. It literally took me three and half years of being here before I started feeling confident in helping others with rules, philosophy, etc, and even then, I'm real careful in what I type.

APG: Maybe you are familiar with high school or college Policy Debate (or Public Forum) competitions. A new, real-world mock resolution is chosen every year. Teams go head-to-head with one another--half the time affirming the resolution, the other half negating it--round after round, tournament after tournament. As the year(s) progress(es), one powerful learning achievement for many is learning to avoid emotional attachment to particular points of view, so that you can accept/adopt and adapt to new points of view submitted by others, without frustration. Both sides enter each round as though they posses full conviction in their respective positions, which serves to maximize what each learns from the other, in the end. That's my approach, here. Many of you have a different attitude, and then make the mistake of ascribing to me that same attitude. I more just kind of shake the tree to see what falls out, you know?

Originally Posted by mbyron

Because words have meanings.

So, you, mbyron, must become frustrated whenever another disagrees with you about the meaning of words? That's a lot of potential frustration for you, especially considering the Federation felt it necessary to crack down on officials, collectively, for what the Federation views as substantial misinterpretation of the rules as written.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's about explaining the basics of what makes a competent official above the middle school or rec league level.

If he wants to just guess at what contact is a foul or not, fine. If he wants to move up, then it might better serve him to actually figure out the logic and reasoning behind the decisions.

Snaq, you, yourself, have pointed out before how competent officials, when shown the same video clip, disagree about rules application regarding it.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I should have known when he offered the fan/coach/player catechism, "a foul is a foul."

Anything else is a bit ridiculous, isn't it? "Some fouls are fouls"? "A foul is sometimes a foul"? How would you distinguish between "A foul is a foul," and Jurassic's position that a rule should NEVER be waived?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Let me ask you, is the sky blue?

Not here in Oregon. OK - sometimes.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

Why not just say it how you see it, and be fine if not everyone agrees?

OK...you are an arrogant idiot who will not take the advice of people with years of officiating at levels you can only hope to achieve.

You are, therefore, entirely dangerous to the game and the players involved. You make a mockery of the avocation to which many of us on here have devoted years of our time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

OK...you are an arrogant idiot who will not take the advice of people with years of officiating at levels you can only hope to achieve.

You are, therefore, entirely dangerous to the game and the players involved. You make a mockery of the avocation to which many of us on here have devoted years of our time.

Well, he did ask....

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

OK...you are an arrogant idiot who will not take the advice of people with years of officiating at levels you can only hope to achieve.

You are, therefore, entirely dangerous to the game and the players involved. You make a mockery of the avocation to which many of us on here have devoted years of our time.

Don't you think that is kind of the point of POE #1, to rely on the text of the books rather than on other officials? Isn't it the experienced officials, and their application of the rules what caused POE #1? I doubt the Federation would dedicate a POE to Rec officials.