How to deal with bad refs

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by tref

In addition to what Snaqs shared, coach, you are aware that mere contact does not constitute a foul? We referee the "result of contact" not just blowing the whistle because someone was touched on the arm.

If players dont want to be touched, I generally suggest that they look into table tennis or bowling, etc.

Good point and I couldn't agree more. As long as it's called that way on both sides of the floor. I can give numerous examples but as others have pointed out so well there's a lot more that goes into it.

[tref]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

My hope and message in practice is that we should execute well enough so that no other factors, other teams performance included, can affect the outcome.

+1 Talk about good preperation & coaching!

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Good point and I couldn't agree more. As long as it's called that way on both sides of the floor.

Your player gets slapped on the arm while holding the ball prior to dribbling, but doesnt lose the ball or commit a violation because of it. Result = no whistle.

Your opponent in the same sitch, but loses the ball or commits a travel because of it. Result = foul.

Advantage/disadvantage is the name of the game.

Try looking at the result of contact on what appears to be the "same play" to you. By all means, try to post some of the plays in question on here!!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

What I'm saying is that the lead ref, when we're in the offensive zone, switches at halftime so that he's the lead ref in the second half when we're in the offensive zone. When we go to our defensive zone he becomes the trail and it stays this way throughout the game.

One way or the other, this should be the least of your concerns. If there truly is a conspiracy against your team, either official could have a negative bearing on the outcome from either end of the court.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I would agree with you in most cases as I stick up for these same refs myself from time to time with the parents and even the kids. My issue is that even the favored teams kids and coaches admit that these refs make up calls and "don't call anything" from time to time when it's discussed outside the environment.

Coach, I don't think you get how serious an accusation this is. Tell me I missed the call, or was in the wrong position or even that I am wrong on a rule. They might all be true.

Don't dare accuse me of favoring one team over another.

I have reffed over 300 games, a good deal of them rec ball. i have NEVER favored one team over another.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by tref

By all means, try to post some of the plays in question on here!!

Would love to but don't have video.

I see your point on result and in a number of cases that plays a role. I can't adequately display what I'm talking about without the video and I do have a different perspective on a few things after the discussion and reading yesterday so it's just something that I have to go back, review, and move forward from there on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I realize that quite well and would hope an official would take it that way. This is why I haven't said it to his face and decided to get some other opinions on it before I made an issue of it.

I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. In the end we have the championship game Monday against the other "favored" team so we'll see what happens. My hope and message in practice is that we should execute well enough so that no other factors, other teams performance included, can affect the outcome. They're capable so it's ultimately up to them.

But if your players have heard your message and also heard you say the refs favor the other two teams, which lesson do you think they'll learn?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But if your players have heard your message and also heard you say the refs favor the other two teams, which lesson do you think they'll learn?

Depends on if they win or lose

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Coach, I don't think you get how serious an accusation this is. Tell me I missed the call, or was in the wrong position or even that I am wrong on a rule. They might all be true.

Don't dare accuse me of favoring one team over another.

I have reffed over 300 games, a good deal of them rec ball. i have NEVER favored one team over another.

For you to be on a board like this to discuss the situations, interpretations, and understandings of the rules like you do I'm sure you take it serious and would take an accusation like that just as serious.

That doesn't mean that your standards and morals apply to every ref that's taken the test, or put on the stripes either.

You don't know who I am so there's an air of anonymity that allows me to speak my mind and talk through my thoughts without having to deal with the consequences so that plays into it a bit as well. When I walk away from this keyboard there's a much larger set of rules that dictates what comes out of my mouth.

I can understand if you're still offended by the idea that I would even mention it here. If that's true then all I can do is apologize.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But if your players have heard your message and also heard you say the refs favor the other two teams, which lesson do you think they'll learn?

The assumption there is that I voice the two out loud which I do not. I refer to my anonymity comment above in that I'm able to say more here without the consequences.

My message to the kids is that regardless of what the refs do or do not do they still have to play the game, make the baskets. We lost a game by 6 earlier in the year where they were sure the refs stole it from them and were quite pissed about it. I pointed out that we missed about 10-12 layups that had nothing to do with the refs. They shut up and since then we haven't lost.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I'm not worried about credibility as my goal is not to get you to side with me. My goal was to get an opinion on the idea which several people gave some pretty good opinions on.

Okay. My opinion is you're whining and complaining about the officiating because you see it from a biased standpoint.

And I understand completely why you're not concerned with whether you have any credibility or not.

[Trap]

The reality is most officials are competent hardworking people doing their best. Most parents and coachs are passionate people who are doing the best they can for the kids. Everyone is human and do make mistakes.

My observation, many officials dont want to admit, that there are bad officials and officials have bad days. It is obvious there are bad fans and it seems everyone but them know it.

There are towns I know that hire the same officials ( usually sub varsity ) for all their games. And these officials are well known homers. That is the way it is. I guess its their view - it is the home court advantage.

Also my experience, the younger less formailized the competition, the harder it is to officate and the worse the coaches and fans. I would much rather do a varsity game than a junior high rec game anyday.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Trap

My observation, many officials dont want to admit, that there are bad officials and officials have bad days. It is obvious there are bad fans and it seems everyone but them know it.

Bulogna. I have yet to meet or talk to any official who won't admit there are bad officials.

Originally Posted by Trap

There are towns I know that hire the same officials ( usually sub varsity ) for all their games. And these officials are well known homers. That is the way it is. I guess its their view - it is the home court advantage.

I can't say I've ever talked to one of those guys, but you're calling them cheaters. Do you realize that?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Trap

......these officials are well known homers.

Well known by whom? Back when I started, the jr. high schools around here almost always hired their own officials locally. It was common to give two officials their home schedule and be done with it. I have called the entire season's games for several nearby schools at one time or another, including the one closest to my home. I have been accused of calling in favor of my home school. I have been accused, just as often, of bending over backward and calling against my home school. Critiquing my own performance, I am fairly certain the latter is more of a problem.

It's all about perception.

Quote from a coach of a nearby school: (apologetically, believe it or not)

"We don't need to play against (my home school) any more with you calling. It's just not fair."

Quote from the home coach a few years earlier: (right after a close loss)

"Nobody will ever call you homer!!"

The kicker: Both quotes were by the same guy, who had transferred from one job to the other.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Well known by whom?

Well known by everyone in the league. I've heard similar comments from the two favored teams, the people that run the league, as well as other coaches and players. I found out this weekend that the main refs son plays for the team we're playing in the championship.

[grunewar]

What You See, Is What You Get (WYSIWYG)

If everyone involved knows about it,
If the league looks the other way,
If everyone still registers their child to play,
If these officials are allowed/invited back next year.
etc., etc.

Y'all deserve each other. Next!