How to deal with bad refs

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you have not noticed (and appears you have not), you are getting a lot of sarcastic answers. It is not about not wanting to answer your question; there is no way to answer your questions here. For one no one knows what happens on these plays or saw them. I do not know the officials or know why a foul was called in one situation and not called in another situation. Also a slap on the wrist is not a "foul" by rule. That contact might have been minimal or not put the player at a disadvantage. Heck, none of us were there to know for sure.

The best advice is either bring us tape of the plays so that we can see what really took place or go to a coach's forum so all you can complain about how bad officials are all over the place and you will feel better in the end. But at this point and the way you approached this issue here I doubt you are going to get and real answers you seem to be looking for.Peace

I've noticed quite well. That doesn't change that I came here for an honest reason and am getting the answers I'm looking for while having to read between the lines in a few areas. I'm not asking for you to "side with me" and say my refs are bad. I'm only presenting a situation and seeing what people's opinions on it are.

I'm a fan of officials and have a good relationship with many of them in other leagues I coach and play in. From some of the comments I've seen here and in other posts I would say that most here at least care about their craft and that's all you can ask for.

If my presence/posts disturb you then I'm sorry.

[M&M Guy]

coach-rec, Bob gave you the best advice here - talk to the league administrators. Part of the reason you may not be getting the answer(s) you want is because we hear a lot of complaints from coaches and fans about how we miss calls, cheat, etc., and in most cases it is actually a lack of understanding of the rules by those same coaches and fans that leads to their wrong conclusions. Add to that the fact that fans, coaches and players have an emotional stake in the outcome, and see things with that built-in bias, while officials (for the most part) really do not care who wins or loses.

In your example plays, are you 100% certain the defender that "came across the legs" of your player actually initiated the contact, or did your player initiate the contact and move into the defender? On the no-call at one end with the foul on the other, are you 100% certain the actions and contact were exactly the same? Did you have the same angle on both plays to be able to say for certainty they were the same? On the blocked shot, are you 100% sure the ball didn't get blocked first, then the arm was hit after? Or, did the ball get hit first, causing the shooter's arm to look like it was hit? Did you have the same look as the official on the play?

There is, of course, the other side of it, as mentioned by some of the others. Most of the time you will get less-experienced refs working rec leagues, and therefore you will get "less-experienced" calls. I can guarantee you won't find Ed Hightower or Karl Hess working any of your games. You may be able to get a slightly better level of officiating by getting the league to pay better, or by providing training to the officials that do work the league. It sounds like there isn't much in the way of proper mechanics being used, if each official stays on one end of the court for each half. They should switch positions after every foul call, and in some cases on violations. But it is well known that mechanics are a lot looser in rec leagues than they are in sanctioned games. Is there also a chance the officials working those 2 "favored" teams know the guys on those teams? Sure. But again, it's an issue that you and the league need to work out. How much more are you willing to pay to play, to allow for better pay and training for the officials? What if the guys that do work are the only ones available, since all the better officials are out working sanctioned games those nights?

Finally, what difference does it really make in the long run if you have bad officials, or if the officials make bad calls? Does your team make all it's shots? Do the officials ever have to watch your team throw the ball away with unforced errors? Will it keep you from earning a living and paying for food for your family? Will it prevent cancer from being cured? In other words, keep the rec game in perpsective - it's only a game.

[fullor30]

What state are you in? 30-35 is good pay for rec league. Look for an influx of immigrating Louisiana officials to your area soon.

[APG]

Originally Posted by fullor30

what state are you in? 30-35 is good pay for rec league. Look for an influx of immigrating louisiana officials to your area soon.

LOL!

That's just a sad commentary on that state of Louisiana officiating pay.

[coach-rec]

well said M&M guy. Thanks

I will happily agree with your points about perspective, emotional attachment, and angle/view and I've used some of the same points to explain to my players how they need to get over their frustration with it and focus on the things they can control.

In the end I agree with Bob's point as well and will do so. The feedback has helped and given me a few points to consider as well as a few points to bring up in the discussion with the administrator. For those that responded and participated, thank you

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I've noticed quite well. That doesn't change that I came here for an honest reason and am getting the answers I'm looking for while having to read between the lines in a few areas. I'm not asking for you to "side with me" and say my refs are bad. I'm only presenting a situation and seeing what people's opinions on it are.

Did you really expect to get an "honest answer" when you are asking people to know what motivates people in an area none of us know anything about? Based on what you have said, there is no such animal in my parts as most kids are playing with schools or travel/AAU teams. And the travel/AAU model often are with officials that want to make an extra buck and do not care about mechanics or even working the game to be honest. And the suggestion that a team is favored in that setting at all to me is laughable. What the heck are they favoring someone for at all? Many probably would not even know who is playing unless they work the league all the time.

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I'm a fan of officials and have a good relationship with many of them in other leagues I coach and play in. From some of the comments I've seen here and in other posts I would say that most here at least care about their craft and that's all you can ask for.

If my presence/posts disturb you then I'm sorry.

Your post does not bother me at all. Honestly I am bored which is why I commented in the first place. I just wonder what you are going to find on an internet site that you could not find out by asking the people in your area or from the officials working your games.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Look for an influx of immigrating Louisiana officials to your area soon.

Best one-liner of the off-season thus far!

[26 Year Gap]

Watch a game between two other teams that aren't in favored status. Are both teams and coaches constantly griping at the officials? It sounds to me that if they are not switching after fouls and are staying at one end that they are picking up bad habits. The whole point of switching is so that you are not constantly at one team's offensive end as lead. Most officials that avoid rec leagues do so for reasons stated earlier. The pay is not the issue here as that is decent for the type of league it is.

Talk to the league administrator as Bob suggested. It may be best to take notes and talk after the season. And have other coaches take notes as well. Then see if your league administrator can have a meeting with the assignor. Maybe the league could pay for an observer from the association to show up once in awhile to do evaluations unannounced.

But the main reason better officials will avoid rec leagues is because the sportsmanship is often non-existent.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did you really expect to get an "honest answer" when you are asking people to know what motivates people in an area none of us know anything about?

No I expected to get an opinion or several of them. I got plenty and some that helped.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Your post does not bother me at all. Honestly I am bored which is why I commented in the first place. I just wonder what you are going to find on an internet site that you could not find out by asking the people in your area or from the officials working your games.

I found quite a bit that will be useful when I talk to the administrator

1. Officials are supposed to switch responsibilities throughout the game. I did not know this so it's good to know. In non-sanctioned games though it's common for refs to be "lazy" about it.
2. I realized I'm not completely sure whether the officials are certified or not. Something to follow up on in my conversation with the administrator
3. You're bored - doesn't really help me in my league but I could not have found that out by asking local officials.
4. Apparently $30-35 per game is good pay for some areas.
(EDIT) - And reading some of the other posts in this forum is quite educational about rules, officials thinking/responsibilities, and gameplay

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

(EDIT) - And reading some of the other posts in this forum is quite educational about rules, officials thinking/responsibilities, and gameplay

That's really what the forum is about. Feel free to post questions and participate in the discussion!

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's really what the forum is about. Feel free to post questions and participate in the discussion!

And take the class and the test. You might find that you enjoy it. And you certainly will learn from it.

[tref]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I found quite a bit that will be useful when I talk to the administrator

1. Officials are supposed to switch responsibilities throughout the game. I did not know this so it's good to know. In non-sanctioned games though it's common for refs to be "lazy" about it.
2. I realized I'm not completely sure whether the officials are certified or not. Something to follow up on in my conversation with the administrator
3. You're bored - doesn't really help me in my league but I could not have found that out by asking local officials.
4. Apparently $30-35 per game is good pay for some areas.
(EDIT) - And reading some of the other posts in this forum is quite educational about rules, officials thinking/responsibilities, and gameplay

1. Is this "league" using a running clock? If so, not switching on every foul is to conserve the players time on the court. Please dont assume the officials are just "being lazy."

2. So what if the officials arent "certified" it isnt a "certified" contest & obviously the coaches arent "certified" at the HS level either. Most certified officials that I know dont want to deal with the ignorance that goes on at these levels of play. Especially during March Madness & NBA playoff time!! IMO, you guys are watching it on tv before your game & come into the gym way too hyped up for your skill level & true abilities.

3. LOL

4. That is very decent for the off-season!

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

And take the class and the test. You might find that you enjoy it. And you certainly will learn from it.

Nothing better than working with a coach that knows his stuff!!

If an official should know the rules before stepping on a court, shouldn't the coach know em too?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I found quite a bit that will be useful when I talk to the administrator

1. Officials are supposed to switch responsibilities throughout the game. I did not know this so it's good to know. In non-sanctioned games though it's common for refs to be "lazy" about it.
2. I realized I'm not completely sure whether the officials are certified or not. Something to follow up on in my conversation with the administrator
3. You're bored - doesn't really help me in my league but I could not have found that out by asking local officials.
4. Apparently $30-35 per game is good pay for some areas.
(EDIT) - And reading some of the other posts in this forum is quite educational about rules, officials thinking/responsibilities, and gameplay

I'll just add that, more than the pay, the biggest obstacle you're going to have in rec leagues is atmosphere.

How are your officials treated by the coaches and fans? How are they treated by the administration? Are they backed by the administration when they have to deal with sportsmanship issues?

I'll work a game for $20 where I'm treated as a professional before I'll work a $35 game where I have to put up with coaches and fans berating me all game. Best case scenario is both.

The other thing is, if you're games are played during the sanctioned high school season, your better officials are working those games and aren't available on your nights.

I'm not saying we need a red carpet and a state room; but active and supportive game management goes a long way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

No I expected to get an opinion or several of them. I got plenty and some that helped.




I found quite a bit that will be useful ...

Now, you're next thread will be titled "How to deal with JRut"

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by tref

1. Is this "league" using a running clock? If so, not switching on every foul is to conserve the players time on the court. Please dont assume the officials are just "being lazy."

2. So what if the officials arent "certified" it isnt a "certified" contest & obviously the coaches arent "certified" at the HS level either. Most certified officials that I know dont want to deal with the ignorance that goes on at these levels of play. Especially during March Madness & NBA playoff time!! IMO, you guys are watching it on tv before your game & come into the gym way too hyped up for your skill level & true abilities.

- I won't assume that but it is something I will ask about. My plan is to talk to the administrator who I already know has some issues with the officiating however runs into a lot of the problems you mentioned (running during season/etc...)

- I'm not saying I'm going to go in with a "prove you're certified" button or anything. It's just a point that weighs into the situation.

Originally Posted by tref

Nothing better than working with a coach that knows his stuff!!

If an official should know the rules before stepping on a court, shouldn't the coach know em too?

You make a good point here so that's something I will consider.