How to deal with bad refs

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Also what about the question of whether refs are supposed to switch sides at halftime or if it's up to them? I just don't know that answer but seem to remember that there's a rule on it.

I do not even know what you are talking about. There is no rule that says anything like this. Now we have "mechanics" that dictate some movement or positioning, but considering that this is a wreck league, I am sure no regular mechanics are being followed when an official is paid so low and they are probably doing multiple games in one night. Again, you get what you pay for.

Originally Posted by coach-rec

wfd21 - I can appreciate that you don't want to answer but why would I go to a coach to answer a question that deals directly with a referee, the rules they follow (or are supposed to follow), and how they interpret them? Kinda seems like asking a nun what sex is like if you ask me.

If you have not noticed (and appears you have not), you are getting a lot of sarcastic answers. It is not about not wanting to answer your question; there is no way to answer your questions here. For one no one knows what happens on these plays or saw them. I do not know the officials or know why a foul was called in one situation and not called in another situation. Also a slap on the wrist is not a "foul" by rule. That contact might have been minimal or not put the player at a disadvantage. Heck, none of us were there to know for sure.

The best advice is either bring us tape of the plays so that we can see what really took place or go to a coach's forum so all you can complain about how bad officials are all over the place and you will feel better in the end. But at this point and the way you approached this issue here I doubt you are going to get and real answers you seem to be looking for.

Peace

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you have not noticed (and appears you have not), you are getting a lot of sarcastic answers. It is not about not wanting to answer your question; there is no way to answer your questions here. For one no one knows what happens on these plays or saw them. I do not know the officials or know why a foul was called in one situation and not called in another situation. Also a slap on the wrist is not a "foul" by rule. That contact might have been minimal or not put the player at a disadvantage. Heck, none of us were there to know for sure.

The best advice is either bring us tape of the plays so that we can see what really took place or go to a coach's forum so all you can complain about how bad officials are all over the place and you will feel better in the end. But at this point and the way you approached this issue here I doubt you are going to get and real answers you seem to be looking for.Peace

I've noticed quite well. That doesn't change that I came here for an honest reason and am getting the answers I'm looking for while having to read between the lines in a few areas. I'm not asking for you to "side with me" and say my refs are bad. I'm only presenting a situation and seeing what people's opinions on it are.

I'm a fan of officials and have a good relationship with many of them in other leagues I coach and play in. From some of the comments I've seen here and in other posts I would say that most here at least care about their craft and that's all you can ask for.

If my presence/posts disturb you then I'm sorry.

[fullor30]

What state are you in? 30-35 is good pay for rec league. Look for an influx of immigrating Louisiana officials to your area soon.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I've noticed quite well. That doesn't change that I came here for an honest reason and am getting the answers I'm looking for while having to read between the lines in a few areas. I'm not asking for you to "side with me" and say my refs are bad. I'm only presenting a situation and seeing what people's opinions on it are.

Did you really expect to get an "honest answer" when you are asking people to know what motivates people in an area none of us know anything about? Based on what you have said, there is no such animal in my parts as most kids are playing with schools or travel/AAU teams. And the travel/AAU model often are with officials that want to make an extra buck and do not care about mechanics or even working the game to be honest. And the suggestion that a team is favored in that setting at all to me is laughable. What the heck are they favoring someone for at all? Many probably would not even know who is playing unless they work the league all the time.

Originally Posted by coach-rec

I'm a fan of officials and have a good relationship with many of them in other leagues I coach and play in. From some of the comments I've seen here and in other posts I would say that most here at least care about their craft and that's all you can ask for.

If my presence/posts disturb you then I'm sorry.

Your post does not bother me at all. Honestly I am bored which is why I commented in the first place. I just wonder what you are going to find on an internet site that you could not find out by asking the people in your area or from the officials working your games.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

Also what about the question of whether refs are supposed to switch sides at halftime or if it's up to them? I just don't know that answer but seem to remember that there's a rule on it.

Assuming you have a two-man crew, officials are supposed to switch lead and trail duties after every foul. Granted, in the off-season, and particularly with running clocks, some switches may be skipped to move the game along. However, if crews aren't switching at all, that's a problem.

Pay as I understand it is $30-35 per game where the refs have two to three games twice per week.

That's not bad for off-season, at least around here. Has anybody given some feedback to these officials? I don't know how many times I've personally heard "good job" or "great job," only to wind up with ratings that don't quite match that feel-good feedback.

[M&M Guy]

coach-rec, Bob gave you the best advice here - talk to the league administrators. Part of the reason you may not be getting the answer(s) you want is because we hear a lot of complaints from coaches and fans about how we miss calls, cheat, etc., and in most cases it is actually a lack of understanding of the rules by those same coaches and fans that leads to their wrong conclusions. Add to that the fact that fans, coaches and players have an emotional stake in the outcome, and see things with that built-in bias, while officials (for the most part) really do not care who wins or loses.

In your example plays, are you 100% certain the defender that "came across the legs" of your player actually initiated the contact, or did your player initiate the contact and move into the defender? On the no-call at one end with the foul on the other, are you 100% certain the actions and contact were exactly the same? Did you have the same angle on both plays to be able to say for certainty they were the same? On the blocked shot, are you 100% sure the ball didn't get blocked first, then the arm was hit after? Or, did the ball get hit first, causing the shooter's arm to look like it was hit? Did you have the same look as the official on the play?

There is, of course, the other side of it, as mentioned by some of the others. Most of the time you will get less-experienced refs working rec leagues, and therefore you will get "less-experienced" calls. I can guarantee you won't find Ed Hightower or Karl Hess working any of your games. You may be able to get a slightly better level of officiating by getting the league to pay better, or by providing training to the officials that do work the league. It sounds like there isn't much in the way of proper mechanics being used, if each official stays on one end of the court for each half. They should switch positions after every foul call, and in some cases on violations. But it is well known that mechanics are a lot looser in rec leagues than they are in sanctioned games. Is there also a chance the officials working those 2 "favored" teams know the guys on those teams? Sure. But again, it's an issue that you and the league need to work out. How much more are you willing to pay to play, to allow for better pay and training for the officials? What if the guys that do work are the only ones available, since all the better officials are out working sanctioned games those nights?

Finally, what difference does it really make in the long run if you have bad officials, or if the officials make bad calls? Does your team make all it's shots? Do the officials ever have to watch your team throw the ball away with unforced errors? Will it keep you from earning a living and paying for food for your family? Will it prevent cancer from being cured? In other words, keep the rec game in perpsective - it's only a game.

[coach-rec]

well said M&M guy. Thanks

I will happily agree with your points about perspective, emotional attachment, and angle/view and I've used some of the same points to explain to my players how they need to get over their frustration with it and focus on the things they can control.

In the end I agree with Bob's point as well and will do so. The feedback has helped and given me a few points to consider as well as a few points to bring up in the discussion with the administrator. For those that responded and participated, thank you

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by coach-rec

- no call on one side of the court and we're called for the same action (granted by a different ref) on the other side (see question below concerning this).

That's the oldest complaint in the book. Every coach I've ever worked sees it that way. It other words, there's very little cedibility to this complaint.

- Kid gets slapped across the arm and when I ask for an explanation of how the ref couldn't call it I'm told "it was all ball and your kid is just soft"

You thought it was across the arm, he said it was all ball. Are we supposed to rely solely on your response?

I also am wondering if I'm imagining this or not. Isn't there a rule where the refs don't officiate the same side after halftime? I've noticed that the same ref always positions himself on our offensive side of the ball and it's consistent enough to not be coincidence.

Just curious, do you have the same two officials for every game? Do they officiate HS games or are they two kids who work for the rec dept.?

[cmhjordan23]

@coach-rec. I think I understand your question about switching at half-time. Generally regardless of where an official was positioned at anytime during the 1st half, the official who went up with the jump ball will take the ball out at side court and becoming the trail official. Me personally, HS games vs rec ball I might do a little differently. Rec I will not switch on all fouls but generally ALWAYS switch on free throws depending whether I called it from the top or from the endline. Although there is no reason not to switch with a running clock because your not taking up extra time.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's the oldest complaint in the book. Every coach I've ever worked sees it that way. It other words, there's very little cedibility to this complaint.

I'm not worried about credibility as my goal is not to get you to side with me. My goal was to get an opinion on the idea which several people gave some pretty good opinions on.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You thought it was across the arm, he said it was all ball. Are we supposed to rely solely on your response?

The issue in point here is not that he thought it was ball. It was the comment after to me that "your PG is soft". You can rely on whatever you want in your determination as it's my issue to deal with.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Just curious, do you have the same two officials for every game? Do they officiate HS games or are they two kids who work for the rec dept.?

We do have the same two officails for 90% of the games except a few times over the past two years where one could not show up. In those cases another ref shows up or one of the league organizers helps out. They are men that ref in other rec leagues for the city as I've seen them refing some of the lower age group games as well. Several people have pointed out that it's tough to get good refs to coach these leagues. In a conversation yesterday I found out that the main ref that doesn't miss games and seems to favor the two teams in question was recommended by those two teams when there were issues finding refs to do it.

[Adam]

Coach, please realize that when you accuse him of favoring teams, you are directly saying he has no integrity. Most officials find that to be a very serious accusation.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Coach, please realize that when you accuse him of favoring teams, you are directly saying he has no integrity. Most officials find that to be a very serious accusation.

+1

I T'd a coach least season for insinuating that I was a cheater. No warning, no stop sign. In fact, I didn't even wait for him to finish his sentence.

[tref]

In addition to what Snaqs shared, coach, you are aware that mere contact does not constitute a foul? We referee the "result of contact" not just blowing the whistle because someone was touched on the arm.

If players dont want to be touched, I generally suggest that they look into table tennis or bowling, etc.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by tref

In addition to what Snaqs shared, coach, you are aware that mere contact does not constitute a foul? We referee the "result of contact" not just blowing the whistle because someone was touched on the arm.

If players dont want to be touched, I generally suggest that they look into table tennis or bowling, etc.

Good point and I couldn't agree more. As long as it's called that way on both sides of the floor. I can give numerous examples but as others have pointed out so well there's a lot more that goes into it.

[coach-rec]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Coach, please realize that when you accuse him of favoring teams, you are directly saying he has no integrity. Most officials find that to be a very serious accusation.

I realize that quite well and would hope an official would take it that way. This is why I haven't said it to his face and decided to get some other opinions on it before I made an issue of it.

I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. In the end we have the championship game Monday against the other "favored" team so we'll see what happens. My hope and message in practice is that we should execute well enough so that no other factors, other teams performance included, can affect the outcome. They're capable so it's ultimately up to them.