Tim Higgins

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

That final 20 seconds was horrendous.

1. On the drive, I definitely think there was a foul on the defender. Hands and arms were nowhere near vertical.

2. I think there should have been a whistle on the missed free throw and rebound. I think the reason the rebounder falls out of bounds is due to a push from the defender.

I see why both of these were not called. The rebounding looked like players were falling over each other and am not sure a foul should have been called there. Not saying it was right, just saying I see why it was not called when bodies are all going for the ball.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

3. I think the initial play on the deep pass was fine. But the missed travel AND the out of bounds was BAD. He (the player) was out of bounds far enough that both the lead and trail could of gotten it. Plus the center has a clear view of the player and can see the steps.

When they showed the angle from the basket, I do not think that was a travel. He stepped out of bounds for sure, but that would have nullified a travel as the out of bounds took place first.

All I will say is two of these guys on this game have not worked past the first weekend or at all since Mr. Adams has taken over from Mr. Nichols. I will just leave it at that.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does a defender have to keep their hands vertical when the shooter is jumping forward into them?

Imo the good officials at that level just won't reward any shooter that jumps into a defender and initiates the contact. And that was my impression on seeing the original play as well as the replay.

I see that play called all the time at the D1 level and no one bats an eye....by those same guys.

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Makes sense.

Actually, a T would be for delaying the game by preventing the ball from being made live. There's no mechanism for a warning on this one.

That said, I wouldn't call this one either, unless he did it signficantly after I blew my whistle for the violation and it actually delayed the throw-in.

Just curious and trying to learn -- what's the rule? I know there's a rule for DoG that requires a warning first. And I know that there are admin techs that can be given to "followers" for preventing the ball from being made live. But what's the rule that would allow a T for a checked in player throwing the ball into the stands during a time out if no warning had been given?

Edit -- sorry, don't know why I said "time out". I meant after the violation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does a defender have to keep their hands vertical when the shooter is jumping forward into them?

Imo the good officials at that level just won't reward any shooter that jumps into a defender and initiates the contact. And that was my impression on seeing the original play as well as the replay.

That was my impression. And it does not look like the arms made contact, but the contact was all with the chest.

Peace

[APG]

Going back and seeing the final play, I can see why a travel wasn't called by the center. I'd be fine with the no call. Still don't know how the trail and lead miss the out of bounds call.

[Victor74]

Just to throw my two cents in watching this. I had no foul in the loose ball and no travel. The player does appear to step out of bounds at 1.7 seconds. It appears to me all three officials assumed the game was just going to end. The trail official should have been "in the game" and noticed the OOB call.
As for each official, this one terrible ending to a game shouldn't affect their tournament eligability. Jim Burr is good but nearing his career. I'd still put him in the tournament, if only for the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Tim Higgins needed to retire years ago in my opinion. It's hard watching him try to get into position all game long. I wouldn't have him in the tournament as has been the case in recent years. Earl Walton should remain tournament eligable (and wasn't in position to make the OOB call).
This just doesn't look very good for NCAA officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Still don't know how the trail and lead miss the out of bounds call.

Whose call was it? Burr or Higgins?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Going back and seeing the final play, I can see why a travel wasn't called by the center. I'd be fine with the no call. Still don't know how the trail and lead miss the out of bounds call.

I totally agree with you about the OOB call. That should not have been missed.

Peace

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Exactly ... There was NO TRAVEL. Can't somebody tell Digger Phelps and the gang this!

Maybe they are trying to make the point that even if you don't have him out of bounds, you should have a walk?

On the one replay I saw, it did look like the third step landed before he released the ball, but I only saw it once.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I totally agree with you about the OOB call. That should not have been missed.

Hell, I don't think anybody could ever argue that. But...it happens.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Victor74

Just to throw my two cents in watching this. I had no foul in the loose ball and no travel. The player does appear to step out of bounds at 1.7 seconds. It appears to me all three officials assumed the game was just going to end. The trail official should have been "in the game" and noticed the OOB call.
As for each official, this one terrible ending to a game shouldn't affect their tournament eligability. Jim Burr is good but nearing his career. I'd still put him in the tournament, if only for the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Tim Higgins needed to retire years ago in my opinion. It's hard watching him try to get into position all game long. I wouldn't have him in the tournament as has been the case in recent years. Earl Walton should remain tournament eligable (and wasn't in position to make the OOB call).
This just doesn't look very good for NCAA officials.

The two officials you are talking about have not work pass the first weekend (and one game at that) for the passed couple of years. Not sure this game was going to change that.

I would not go as far as say it looks bad on NCAA officials but looks bad on these officials and their conference. If they are not working much more I do not see this as an issue at all. What looks bad is we have commentators that comment about things they have no idea about. Because if it was a travel, say why it was a travel. But then again the public thinks that "3 steps" is illegal when it is not.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hell, I don't think anybody could ever argue that. But...it happens.

Of course it happens, even to me.

Peace

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because if it was a travel, say why it was a travel. But then again the public thinks that "3 steps" is illegal when it is not.

Peace

Ignoring the OOB issue and the clock -- that is if the play had been in bounds and with time on the clock -- don't you think it was a travel? Again, I only saw it once, but it looked to me as though he gathered, landed on one foot, and returned that pivot before tossing the ball into the crowd (which, in this case, occurred in 3 steps).

If all the announcers are saying is effectively, "even if it was in bounds, it looked like a travel," is that a problem?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Ignoring the OOB issue and the clock -- that is if the play had been in bounds and with time on the clock -- don't you think it was a travel?

You cannot have a travel when the players are out of bounds. And I did see it more than once.

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Again, I only saw it once, but it looked to me as though he gathered, landed on one foot, and returned that pivot before tossing the ball into the crowd (which, in this case, occurred in 3 steps).

The question is when did he actually have the ball? He knocked the ball down to the floor when he first had the ball.

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

If all the announcers are saying is effectively, "even if it was in bounds, it looked like a travel," is that a problem?

The commentators (Digger Phelps) said that they missed a travel and an out of bounds call. The travel they want is questionable if not there at all. And when you say he took three steps when the third step was out of bounds you cannot have it both ways. Yes, it is a problem when the public does not understand the rules and you tell everyone the incorrect ruling. So when we get to our games and I have to explain to a coach that I do not call steps, I call traveling based on the actions of the pivot foot that is what causes confusion for everyone. Kind of like the moving screen I had a coach want called last week and the screen did not cause any contact and the defender moved with the screener, but yet a coach wanted a foul called when no illegal contact took place. Yes, that is wrong. And he said that 3 officials missed it. Three officials are not looking at this play. Maybe two of them were, but more likely 1 in this specific play.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Whose call was it? Burr or Higgins?

It was at mid court table side. They were both at/around opposite endlines. The pass went long, but all the action being discussed happened at mid court table side. Both appeared to be screened out by bench personnell. The "C"'s body language was "Something funky just happened but I am not sure what" and looks at both officials as he heads across the court. I don't have faces to go with names, but one of the officials was much quicker to the locker room tunnel than the other two.
My take away from this is: If guys at THAT level can make mistakes like that, I feel much better about the mistakes I make at my level!