Passed on Foul, so Passed on the Travel

[JRutledge]

If the contact was illegal call the foul if it created a travel. If the contact was legal and then there was a travel call the travel. Not sure why that would be hard to judge. Your partner really needs to get rid of that way of thinking.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by CDurham

We had a play where a player gets hit and loses his balance. Foul? Well my partner passed on it and the player falls to the floor in control of the ball. Travel? My partner passed on this as well since he did not call the foul which caused the travel.

I have never heard of this philosophy, not saying that is wrong, of passing on 2 things when one caused the other. Does anyone view this situation as my partner did (didnt call the foul so you cannot call the travel). Wouldn't you have to get one or the other. I see it as necessary to call the late foul, but can also see his argument as well, of passing on both if you do not get the culprit which was the foul.

The best way to handle this is with a late whistle for the foul. Ya, it looks bad, but two missed calls is much much worse. In fact, a late call happens at other times in the game, so they're not entirely a bad thing.

If you're definitely not going to call the foul (which I do not recommend at all), then the only way to acceptably not call the travel is if it is reasonable that the player bobbled the ball before he hit the ground, and therefore only regained player control after he was already on the ground. If it is clear that control was not lost, then you have to call the travel. That's obviously a horrible call, so instead, just live with the late whistle. It's the better call than not calling either or a travel by a factor of 10.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Have a late whistle on the foul if you truly think it caused the travel.

+1

I called a foul once after the dribbled had taken 4 or 5 steps. The foul caused her to lose her balance, and before she could recover herself and the ball, she stepped on the sideline.

Coach said, "wasn't that too late?" I told her I wanted to see the whole play. I should have asked her whether I should call every bump by her players a foul immediately.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by CDurham

We had a play where a player gets hit and loses his balance. Foul? Well my partner passed on it and the player falls to the floor in control of the ball. Travel? My partner passed on this as well since he did not call the foul which caused the travel.

I have never heard of this philosophy, not saying that is wrong, of passing on 2 things when one caused the other. Does anyone view this situation as my partner did (didnt call the foul so you cannot call the travel). Wouldn't you have to get one or the other. I see it as necessary to call the late foul, but can also see his argument as well, of passing on both if you do not get the culprit which was the foul.

This is something I see a lot when working with newer officials. It is sort of an offiicals personal version of a "make up" call. It is not un - rare, but it is not a good thing. IME, it is usually a situation where the player with the ball might be a little off balance and the defender only slightly bumps the defender. The feeling is that it is 'weak' foul, and they don't feel 'confident' enough to make that call. HOPEFULLY, it passes rather quickly.
I find the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right." Plus, you can probably explain away 1 wrong decision on a play, but it is impossible to to explain away 2 wrong decisions on the same play!! Another rule of thumb is to always "Know how a player hit the floor".

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So what were you looking at that you didn't see the defender get pushed?

The thrower, his defender & the 2 engaged matchups in front of me. The player that got "pushed" OOB came from the Cs side & was out in lane area facing me. So if there was a push, I wouldn't have seen it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

This is something I see a lot when working with newer officials. It is sort of an offiicals personal version of a "make up" call. It is not un - rare, but it is not a good thing. IME, it is usually a situation where the player with the ball might be a little off balance and the defender only slightly bumps the defender. The feeling is that it is 'weak' foul, and they don't feel 'confident' enough to make that call. HOPEFULLY, it passes rather quickly.
I find the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right." Plus, you can probably explain away 1 wrong decision on a play, but it is impossible to to explain away 2 wrong decisions on the same play!! Another rule of thumb is to always "Know how a player hit the floor".

Typically, I see it with refs in the beginning of what I consider the third stage of officiating.
1. Too scared to blow the whistle.
2. Calls everything a foul.
3. Learns about A/D and starts learning to apply it. At this point, they tend to let things go that can end up killing a game. Sometimes the whistles are too patient; but it's a learning process.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

The thrower, his defender & the 2 engaged matchups in front of me. The player that got "pushed" OOB came from the Cs side & was out in lane area facing me. So if there was a push, I wouldn't have seen it.

Maybe it's just me (always likely), but I'd be real hesitant to call the DoG if I didn't see how B1 got OOB; unless he was actually interfering with the throw-in.

Also, it sounds like he was likely pushed while the ball was dead; thus 99% likely there's no foul there.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

The thrower, his defender & the 2 engaged matchups in front of me. The player that got "pushed" OOB came from the Cs side & was out in lane area facing me. So if there was a push, I wouldn't have seen it.

Got it...partner should have either called the foul or kept his mouth shut in the locker room!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Got it...partner should have either called the foul or kept his mouth shut in the locker room!

Not necessarily; what if the "push" happened during the dead ball period?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not necessarily; what if the "push" happened during the dead ball period?

According to tref's first post on this, the thrower had the ball and was attempting to throw it in when suddenly the defender is across the line...what am I missing here?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

According to tref's first post on this, the thrower had the ball and was attempting to throw it in when suddenly the defender is across the line...what am I missing here?

It's possible I'm reading it wrong.

Originally Posted by tref

I wonder if I worked with your partner Saturday!

Im new T on a throw-in after a made basket & all of a sudden a defender is OOB with the thrower. I call a DOG... after the game he says the defender was pushed OOB & I shouldn't have called the DOG

Im thinking to myself, if you called the foul then I wouldnt have had to

But I kept it to myself as thats what you get when they mix up the crews from different areas this time of year...

I'm still not sure. He doesn't say if it's definite that B1 crossed the line after the throw-in started; but I see how it seems likely from his post.

Again, I would be pretty hesitant to call the DoG if I didn't see the defender cross; unless he was actually interfering with (or even defending) the throw-in.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's possible I'm reading it wrong.



I'm still not sure. He doesn't say if it's definite that B1 crossed the line after the throw-in started; but I see how it seems likely from his post.

Again, I would be pretty hesitant to call the DoG if I didn't see the defender cross; unless he was actually interfering with (or even defending) the throw-in.

Gotcha...

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's possible I'm reading it wrong.



I'm still not sure. He doesn't say if it's definite that B1 crossed the line after the throw-in started; but I see how it seems likely from his post.

Again, I would be pretty hesitant to call the DoG if I didn't see the defender cross; unless he was actually interfering with (or even defending) the throw-in.

I was at 3 & a click on my throw-in count (live ball) & suddenly a defender was OOB with myself & the thrower. I felt I had no other choice, by rule...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I was at 3 & a click on my throw-in count (live ball) & suddenly a defender was OOB with myself me & the thrower. I felt I had no other choice, by rule...

Yeah, that's a little different.

[Camron Rust]

Similar situation I had in a recent game...


Backcourt endline spot throwin with the spot on the right of the basket about 1/2 way between the lane and the corner. A2 tries to curl down the opposite side and do a tightrope walk across the endline in an attempt to swing by the thrower for a short pass (handoff). However, B2 is able to cutoff A2's path just as A2 reaches the vicinity of the endline. There is contact. A2 deflects off B2 and B2 is unaffected by the contact. Assume that you judge that either B2 did not commit a foul because B2 had LGP or that there was no additional advantage gained by the contact. A2 steps OOB under the FT lane and, after regaining his balance, immediately returns inbounds. What do you have?