roll over traveling

[phansen]

NFHS

A1 dives for a loose ball, gains possession while sliding facedown, then turns on his side and passes to a teammate. It was a very fluid, continuous motion. I called a travel because of the roll onto the side. I know he can slide without a travel, but at what point does the roll become a travel. Does he have to completely roll over? Or in my case does a side roll constitute a travel?

[Mechanicsman]

Any roll to gain an advantage is a travel. If he is passing and that forces him to his side, I will not call it. If he rolls around looking for a teamate i call it.

[M&M Guy]

We just had this discussion recently:

Roll over = travel

[Nevadaref]

As M&M says we had a big discussion on this point.
I would not characterize what the player did in your situation as "rolling over." One could just as easily call it turning to his side.
I don't penalize for traveling unless the player rotates 180 degrees or more.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Any roll to gain an advantage is a travel. If he is passing and that forces him to his side, I will not call it. If he rolls around looking for a teamate i call it.

I'm confused ... sounds like you're saying that you would have two different rulings for the same play, depending on the circumstances. If that's what you are saying, how can that be? Either it's a violation or it isn't ... my head hurts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

I'm confused ... sounds like you're saying that you would have two different rulings for the same play, depending on the circumstances. If that's what you are saying, how can that be? Either it's a violation or it isn't ... my head hurts.

Agreed. This play isn't about "intent" or "context" any more than pulling the pivot foot is.

[Mechanicsman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed. This play isn't about "intent" or "context" any more than pulling the pivot foot is.

Well you have to be rolling to gain an advantage.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Well you have to be rolling to gain an advantage.

That's just it, you don't. Violations, unlike fouls, are not based on advantage/disadvantage.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Well you have to be rolling to gain an advantage.

What I believe Snaqwells means (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that there's something typically concrete to look for in travelling, i.e., the pick up and replacement of the pivot foot. It's not about an advantange; it's about something defined.

Meanwhile, what exactly defines "rolling over?" Rolling 360 degrees? 180 degrees? I wouldn't say rolling 90 degrees (back to side, side to stomach) is rolling OVER, yet it seems the pluarility here believes thats enough to warrrant a travel.

That's why I started the other thread about this. I was also looking for something defined -- instead of an advantage -- so we're more likely on the same page with this call.

[Mechanicsman]

I agree. Mabey something should be sent to NFHS suggesting more clarity and making it more black and white instead of up to interpretation.

[NoFussRef]

Still laughing about the "Pivot Cheek" comment.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

Well you have to be rolling to gain an advantage.

This could mean any number of things, so let me try to restate so I understand.

Are you saying that in order to travel, you have to gain an advantage with the roll?

Are you saying that in order to travel, you have to be trying to gain an advantage with the roll?

Are you saying in order to gain an advantage, you have to roll (it may seem silly, but it's a possible meaning of the sentence as worded and I'm not sure it's any more crazy than the other two).

Must a player gain an advantage by moving his pivot foot illegally before you call the travel? If so, based on what wording of the rule? If not, why is it different?

[Mechanicsman]

I was told in our class in OhioHSAA we were told in order to travel, you have to have gained an advatage by rolling. I will see if I can ask someone in charge of our assosiation for more clarity, but they should be more clear in the book.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mechanicsman

I was told in our class in OhioHSAA we were told in order to travel, you have to have gained an advatage by rolling. I will see if I can ask someone in charge of our assosiation for more clarity, but they should be more clear in the book.

While it may be how they want you to enforce it; it's definitely not part of the rule. Perhaps some of our other Ohio members could verify whether that's the official position of the OHSAA or if it's the opinion of the person who taught your class. Could be either.

Again, however, the rule itself does not say it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Violations, unlike fouls, are not based on advantage/disadvantage.

Three seconds? Ten seconds to shoot a free throw?

"It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule."

Are there some rules that don't involve fouls?