out of bounds rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by socal

Thank you, 4-35-1/2 tells me that one foot inbounds is ok if the other foot isnt touching o.o.b. So you do not need 2 feet to touch inbounds prior to touching the ball in order to establish as being inbounds, and legally touching the ball.

Strange that so many officials I have spoken to, some long term officials, not knowing this rule.

Thank you for your replies.

The more you study the rules the more you'll be amazed at the amount of "strange" conversations you will have with "veteran" officials.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The more you study the rules the more you'll be amazed at the amount of "strange" conversations you will have with "veteran" officials.

Ouch! Agreed though.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Ouch! Agreed though.

Seriously. I don't even discuss rules with local officials. I count maybe on 1 hand the number of HS refs here on the Peninsula who study the rules.

And a lot of college guys aren't much better. A couple of the guys who have helped me along are terrible when it comes to the rules quizzes we take, but at least they acknowledge it and know who to trust to get the right ruling. It's HS guys who sit there and argue with you without any basis from the rule book.

[grunewar]

BNR - Always room to improve. I work with many senior and more experienced officials who care and pride themselves on rules knowledge. That being said, I have had several "discussions" where I have sent an email when I got home quoting the reg (if I can't find it at the game - or they just don't want to wait and discuss at the game (preferred)).

If they're wrong I usually don't hear back.....

If I miss it, I'll cop to it.

Live and learn.

[JRutledge]

I cannot say it is that bad in my experience. Usually the stuff they do not know is often obscure or not often used rules. For example I had a veteran (who is a State Final official) tried to debate with me an intentional foul would get 2 shots always even on a 3 point shot. Well that is rather obscure and unusual rule for sure. But I do not see many veterans not knowing substitution rules or throw-in violation for 5 seconds. But I am often surprised what rules a veteran will argue like I mentioned earlier.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot say it is that bad in my experience. ...

Unfortunately it is pretty bad right here in my immediate area at the moment. I enjoy going to camps and being able to have sustansive conversations about officiating.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I enjoy going to camps and being able to have sustansive conversations about officiating.

or just coming to the Forum!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by grunewar

or just coming to the Forum!

Yes, but nothing beats discussing a situation that just happened on the court.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot say it is that bad in my experience. Usually the stuff they do not know is often obscure or not often used rules. For example I had a veteran (who is a State Final official) tried to debate with me an intentional foul would get 2 shots always even on a 3 point shot. Well that is rather obscure and unusual rule for sure. But I do not see many veterans not knowing substitution rules or throw-in violation for 5 seconds. But I am often surprised what rules a veteran will argue like I mentioned earlier.

Peace

It really is that bad....even on basic stuff...and not just here.

I see officials call block/charge wrong because they don't really know the rules of legal guarding. For example, calling a block on defender with clear LGP who takes one step backwards or leans backwards but still gets clobbered. Or calling a block on a moving defender because the defender wasn't "set" when both players were on the ground with contact solely in the torso.

I see officials call traveling wrong (both incorrect calls and incorrect no calls) because they don't understand the rules. For example, high dribbles, fumbles, muffs, etc. get called a travel/carry.

I see officials call violations on throwins because the don't know the rules....such as when the thrower moves their feet or jumps and lands with the ball.

I even see some of these incorrect calls in NCAA D1 games almost as much as I see them in HS games. All basic fundamental stuff that gets regularly missed.

[BillyMac]

You are where you are until you get where you're going.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It really is that bad....even on basic stuff...and not just here.

I see officials call block/charge wrong because they don't really know the rules of legal guarding. For example, calling a block on defender with clear LGP who takes one step backwards or leans backwards but still gets clobbered. Or calling a block on a moving defender because the defender wasn't "set" when both players were on the ground with contact solely in the torso.

I see officials call traveling wrong (both incorrect calls and incorrect no calls) because they don't understand the rules. For example, high dribbles, fumbles, muffs, etc. get called a travel/carry.

I see officials call violations on throwins because the don't know the rules....such as when the thrower moves their feet or jumps and lands with the ball.

I even see some of these incorrect calls in NCAA D1 games almost as much as I see them in HS games. All basic fundamental stuff that gets regularly missed.

But all this stuff you are mostly talking about, I see on this site mostly. I do not see these things being called in my actual games or games I witness live in my area on a regular basis. And I am not suggesting there are not rules mistakes, I see them often, but usually by younger officials or officials that are not at a certain level. And when more accomplished officials make those mistakes, it is usually rare.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But all this stuff you are mostly talking about, I see on this site mostly. I do not see these things being called in my actual games or games I witness live in my area on a regular basis. And I am not suggesting there are not rules mistakes, I see them often, but usually by younger officials or officials that are not at a certain level. And when more accomplished officials make those mistakes, it is usually rare.

Peace

It's a regional thing It's most definitely a problem here. And I can identify the genesis of the whole problem in my area, but it's not something I want to get into on a public forum.

I just know when I'm in camp and interacting with officials from different places I'm envious of the type of officiating environment they have in their local areas.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot say it is that bad in my experience. Usually the stuff they do not know is often obscure or not often used rules. For example I had a veteran (who is a State Final official) tried to debate with me an intentional foul would get 2 shots always even on a 3 point shot. Well that is rather obscure and unusual rule for sure. But I do not see many veterans not knowing substitution rules or throw-in violation for 5 seconds. But I am often surprised what rules a veteran will argue like I mentioned earlier.



Peace

What was the argument on intentional foul on a three? I want to make sure I'm applying that rule correctly. My situations have always been after a made bucket. Ive seen some veterans award two after the make and some only award one. Thanks in advance.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

What was the argument on intentional foul on a three? I want to make sure I'm applying that rule correctly. My situations have always been after a made bucket. Ive seen some veterans award two after the make and some only award one. Thanks in advance.

Unsuccessful 3 -- shoot 3.

Successful 3 -- shoot 2.

Unsuccessful 2 OR successful 2 -- shoot 2.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Seriously. I don't even discuss rules with local officials. I count maybe on 1 hand the number of HS refs here on the Peninsula who study the rules.

And a lot of college guys aren't much better. A couple of the guys who have helped me along are terrible when it comes to the rules quizzes we take, but at least they acknowledge it and know who to trust to get the right ruling. It's HS guys who sit there and argue with you without any basis from the rule book.

I've had some crazy discussions with some high level "seasoned" officials (whether a shot at the wrong basket should count if time expires while the ball is in the air, or whether an airborne player who catches the ball is allowed to land on his arse). I've had equally seasoned and respected partners call a player OOB for not having established two feet inbounds after being OOB. I won't say what city I was in when these happened to protect the guilty and the innocent.