Foul, Whistle, Shot

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Imho, A's habitual shooting motion continues until they release, violate, or request a TO. Count the basket in your case.

Based on the discription I'm envisioning the play having stopped and then A1 all of a sudden flips the ball in the basket after the play is dead.

[bob jenkins]

Did she "finish her attempt and start another" or "just take a long time to finish her initial attempt?"

You need to decide -- that's why we get the big bucks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Did she "finish her attempt and start another" or "just take a long time to finish her initial attempt?"

You need to decide -- that's why we get the big bucks.

Agree.

It's a HTBT and so far we've had 2 different explanations of what happened. In the first, it was stated "A1 continues the act of shooting...". In the second, we're told "I didn't see it as continuation." There's nowayinhell any of us can help out with descriptions like that.

[BktBallRef]

After she was fouled:

Did she travel?

Was she airborne?

Did she return to the floor?

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree.

It's a HTBT and so far we've had 2 different explanations of what happened. In the first, it was stated "A1 continues the act of shooting...". In the second, we're told "I didn't see it as continuation." There's nowayinhell any of us can help out with descriptions like that.

I can because, She was shooting, she was fouled and was stopped, I blew, Began to move toward the table and she then continued to go forward unimpeded by B1, because when I blew, B1 stopped her action. Imagine, as I said, about a 1 and 1/2 second between the time I blew and she finished the shot. I saw it as 2 different actions. 1st shot attempt and a 2nd. It didn't make a difference in the game. But I am looking to learn, if I made a mistake.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I can because, She was shooting, she was fouled and was stopped, I blew, Began to move toward the table and she then continued to go forward unimpeded by B1, because when I blew, B1 stopped her action. Imagine, as I said, about a 1 and 1/2 second between the time I blew and she finished the shot. I saw it as 2 different actions. 1st shot attempt and a 2nd. It didn't make a difference in the game. But I am looking to learn, if I made a mistake.

Here's your problem...you need to stay with the play until the playing action stops.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

But I am looking to learn, if I made a mistake.

Then you have to be honest and ask yourself if you can trust your partner or whether you're just trying to justify your call. It looks like your partner was just trying to help out.

There's really nothing that any of us can help you with on this imo because of the conflicting descriptions given.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I saw it as 2 different actions.

This is what matters. If this is accurate, you made the right call. Based on the description: whistle, B1 noticeably stops, 1 to 1 1/2 second pause, then the shot is released, sounds right to me.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I can because, She was shooting, she was fouled and was stopped, I blew, Began to move toward the table and she then continued to go forward unimpeded by B1, because when I blew, B1 stopped her action. Imagine, as I said, about a 1 and 1/2 second between the time I blew and she finished the shot. I saw it as 2 different actions. 1st shot attempt and a 2nd. It didn't make a difference in the game. But I am looking to learn, if I made a mistake.

You need to determine if it was indeed 2 different shot attempts or if it was one attempt. I am unable to tell if it was was 2 attempts as you said "she finished the shot". That leads me to think that it was the same attempt and the basket should have counted. If the basket does not count and you have the girl in the act of shooting you need to sell the crap out of this call.

[mbyron]

It sounds as if your partner was giving you an either/or: either you had a shooting foul, in which case you must count the basket, or you did not, in which case you wouldn't count the basket. He's ruling out the possibility of a shooting foul that doesn't involve releasing the ball for a try.

He's wrong about that. You might rule that a foul prevents the release of the ball (4-41-2: "It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.") So it is possible to rule that a foul is a "shooting foul" (not a rulebook term) even though no shot was released.

As to whether you got the call right: that's a judgment call, all the way. HTBT. If she was still moving toward the basket and did not "wind up" a second time, I probably would have counted it. With sufficient delay in time or obvious resetting of the shooting motion, I would have called it as you did.

[Terrapins Fan]

Thanks everyone.

As I was going to say in a previous post to this, it was like 2 actions, you've seen a foul called on a shot then someone else taps the ball into the net. When I moved toward the table I had already given my preliminary signal and said " Foul on 21 blue 2 shots, 15 shooter " I was about 3 steps past the play when the basket was shot and made....2 actions in my opinion.

As for my partner, he is very experienced. He did say, either or and I understood his point. I just saw the play differently.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree.

It's a HTBT and so far we've had 2 different explanations of what happened. In the first, it was stated "A1 continues the act of shooting...". In the second, we're told "I didn't see it as continuation." There's nowayinhell any of us can help out with descriptions like that.

The OP disallowed the basket because of the time factor involved - he incorrectly determined that the large delay after the foul ended the habitual shooting motion, but a shooter is afforded an infinite amount of time in the shooting motion after the foul, so long as s/he doesn't start a new habitual motion, violate or request a timeout. During this infinite time period, another B player could play legal defense again the shooter.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on the discription I'm envisioning the play having stopped and then A1 all of a sudden flips the ball in the basket after the play is dead.

That's the way I saw it.

She was on the floor attempting a shot. Did not jump ( 8th grade girls )

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

That's the way I saw it.

She was on the floor attempting a shot. Did not jump ( 8th grade girls )

I hope you did not make a call simply because a player was still on the floor. Nothing you have said makes it clear this shot should not have counted. Actually I am more confused every time you try to justify your position.

Peace