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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 02:55pm
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While reading casebook play 7.5.4c about an accidental whistle, a situation came to mind.

In the casebook play, whistle is blown accidentally when A1's try attempt is in flight. The ball is awarded to the team with AP.

What if the shot goes in?

What if you were going to call a foul, blew the whistle, then realized there wasn't a foul and needed to change the call. Basket made and missed (2 cases). I realize this is case of being to quick on the whistle, but that isn't my question.

What would the call be?
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 02:59pm
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A1 shoots, Ball in air, inadvertant whistle.

Ball goes in: Count basket for A, B gets ball for throwin.

Ball misses: Go to AP arrow.

Give quick "my fault" to partner(s) (got to let them know what you did) then to each coach and get the game going again as quick as possible.
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 03:07pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
A1 shoots, Ball in air, inadvertant whistle.

Ball goes in: Count basket for A, B gets ball for throwin.

Ball misses: Go to AP arrow.

Give quick "my fault" to partner(s) (got to let them know what you did) then to each coach and get the game going again as quick as possible.
Unfortunately, that is not what the case book says. 7.5.4

The whistle has to be blown after the ball has gone in for B to get it. 7.5.4.D
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 03:26pm
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BZ

In this case, you have a live ball in the air. Your inadvertant whistle does not cause the ball to become immediately dead. If the ball goes through the hoop, count the points. If you look closely at the rule of 7-5-4, it references 7-4-4. Which is talking about a dead ball happening when there is TEAM possession. Unfortunately, the Case book could be more detailed, but maybe that is what 7.5.4D was trying to explain should happen. The last line of that case is "Team B would have clearly received the ball had the official not accidently sounded his/her whistle." That principle applies here. In the case of a made basket, B would get the ball.

I may be wrong, but I think you will stand alone if you go with the AP arrow on a made basket.

[Edited by Ref in PA on Jul 26th, 2005 at 04:50 PM]
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 04:04pm
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You would be wrong.

This play has come up before and by rule, if the whistle is during the shot you go to arrow.

Situation D clearly says that the whistle is blown AFTER the ball has gone in.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think common sense would be give the ball to B? Yes.

Unfortunately, that is not what the rules say.
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 04:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
You would be wrong.

This play has come up before and by rule, if the whistle is during the shot you go to arrow.

Situation D clearly says that the whistle is blown AFTER the ball has gone in.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think common sense would be give the ball to B? Yes.

Unfortunately, that is not what the rules say.
Nope, you would be wrong, BZ.

Take a look at http://www.nfhs.org/ If you click on the basketball rules, click again on "2004/05 Basketball Rule Interpretations". This exact play is covered in there towards the bottom of the interpretations and B does get the ball for a throw-in. This play will be in this coming year's casebook- that's what the FED does with these posted interpretations on their website.

I'd post the exact link, but I got better things to do(in a hurry)- like go flip the steaks.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 26th, 2005 at 06:02 PM]
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 05:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
You would be wrong.

This play has come up before and by rule, if the whistle is during the shot you go to arrow.

Situation D clearly says that the whistle is blown AFTER the ball has gone in.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think common sense would be give the ball to B? Yes.

Unfortunately, that is not what the rules say.
Nope, you would be wrong, BZ.

Take a look at http://www.nfhs.org/ If you click on the basketball rules, click again on "2004/05 Basketball Rule Interpretations". This exact play is covered in there towards the bottom of the interpretations and B does get the ball for a throw-in. This play will be in this coming year's casebook- that's what the FED does with these posted interpretations on their website.

I'd post the exact link, but I got better things to do(in a hurry)- like go flip the steaks.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 26th, 2005 at 06:02 PM]
Great, I'm glad they'll be fixing it.

Too bad this interpretation completely contradicts what was in the 2004-2005 case book for the same play.
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
You would be wrong.

This play has come up before and by rule, if the whistle is during the shot you go to arrow.

Situation D clearly says that the whistle is blown AFTER the ball has gone in.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think common sense would be give the ball to B? Yes.

Unfortunately, that is not what the rules say.
Nope, you would be wrong, BZ.

Take a look at http://www.nfhs.org/ If you click on the basketball rules, click again on "2004/05 Basketball Rule Interpretations". This exact play is covered in there towards the bottom of the interpretations and B does get the ball for a throw-in. This play will be in this coming year's casebook- that's what the FED does with these posted interpretations on their website.

I'd post the exact link, but I got better things to do(in a hurry)- like go flip the steaks.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 26th, 2005 at 06:02 PM]
Great, I'm glad they'll be fixing it.

Too bad this interpretation completely contradicts what was in the 2004-2005 case book for the same play.
The assumption in the case book in the past was that the ball was becoming dead with neither team in control and in absence of a goal. Poorly (or incompletely) worded, I'd agree. Contradictory, no.
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 06:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
You would be wrong.

This play has come up before and by rule, if the whistle is during the shot you go to arrow.

Situation D clearly says that the whistle is blown AFTER the ball has gone in.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think common sense would be give the ball to B? Yes.

Unfortunately, that is not what the rules say.
Nope, you would be wrong, BZ.

Take a look at http://www.nfhs.org/ If you click on the basketball rules, click again on "2004/05 Basketball Rule Interpretations". This exact play is covered in there towards the bottom of the interpretations and B does get the ball for a throw-in. This play will be in this coming year's casebook- that's what the FED does with these posted interpretations on their website.

I'd post the exact link, but I got better things to do(in a hurry)- like go flip the steaks.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 26th, 2005 at 06:02 PM]
Great, I'm glad they'll be fixing it.

Too bad this interpretation completely contradicts what was in the 2004-2005 case book for the same play.
The assumption in the case book in the past was that the ball was becoming dead with neither team in control and in absence of a goal. Poorly (or incompletely) worded, I'd agree. Contradictory, no.
Completely contradictory.

One says on a made basket B gets the ball the other says only on a whistle AFTER a made basket before the ball is at B's disposal, yep it's completely the same.
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 09:33pm
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Swallow your whistle..................be patient
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Old Tue Jul 26, 2005, 11:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Poorly (or incompletely) worded.
So, what else is new!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 27, 2005, 12:01am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Completely contradictory.

One says on a made basket B gets the ball the other says only on a whistle AFTER a made basket before the ball is at B's disposal, yep it's completely the same.
I guess I'm just remembering the case play wrong then (I've not actually looked it up for this thread).
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Old Wed Jul 27, 2005, 12:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Completely contradictory.

One says on a made basket B gets the ball the other says only on a whistle AFTER a made basket before the ball is at B's disposal, yep it's completely the same.
I guess I'm just remembering the case play wrong then (I've not actually looked it up for this thread).
This was one of the things on the needed changes we came up with last year.

The interpretation on the website is how it should be:

Shot, whistle, made basket, it's like the whistle never happened, so B's ball.

The case play, however, specifically says it's A's ball with team control, arrow without team control except if the whistle happens AFTER the ball goes through the basket.7.5.4.D
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 27, 2005, 12:49am
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From the website

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 11: An official sounds his/her whistle accidentally while A1’s try attempt is in flight. The try is (a) unsuccessful or (b) successful. RULING: Even though the whistle has blown, the ball does not become dead until the try ends. The official’s accidental whistle has no effect on the flight of the ball. In (a), since there is no team or player control when the try is unsuccessful, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure. In (b), score the basket by A1. Even though, by rule, there is no team control during this dead-ball period following the score, the ball would be given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. Team B would have clearly received the ball had the official not accidentally sounded his/her whistle. (6-7-5 Exception (1); 7-4-4; 7-5-4; 4-12-3,6)
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