Would you access a 'T'?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That might be a local interpretation (which I do not have a problem with) but that is not the case everywhere. Usually what is on the game clock is ultimately what we go by. I know I do not carry a watch on the court to know what is the exact time is before we start any game. And if we do what you suggest than a team would be in violation if a game before went long and no teams submitted the proper information. This is why I think the rules allow for the Referee to make decisions not specifically covered in the rulebook and this is one of them. I agree with you that we probably would not call a T here, just do not agree with the overall logic you are making that conclusion.

Peace

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

And Rut's point is the way most places interpret this rule is slightly different than the way you read it; for the reason he stated. When I'm on the court, I am not looking for a wall clock that has (in my experience) about a 40% chance of being correct. I do not carry my phone with me, so I have no way of verifying the time.

This rule was written with the assumption that the countdown is to the scheduled starting time. The rule doesn't say "originally scheduled time." If that clock is counting down to the start, then that's your clock for this purpose. The schedule has been moved up, period.

That said, I've got no T here. I'm not giving the AD the opportunity to make a bush-league move like this to try to get a cheap T against the visitors.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And Rut's point is the way most places interpret this rule is slightly different than the way you read it; for the reason he stated. When I'm on the court, I am not looking for a wall clock that has (in my experience) about a 40% chance of being correct. I do not carry my phone with me, so I have no way of verifying the time.

This rule was written with the assumption that the countdown is to the scheduled starting time. The rule doesn't say "originally scheduled time." If that clock is counting down to the start, then that's your clock for this purpose. The schedule has been moved up, period.

That said, I've got no T here. I'm not giving the AD the opportunity to make a bush-league move like this to try to get a cheap T against the visitors.

I disagree. We all use the clock because this rule eliminated this bush-league crap. You can't change the start time to force a T on the visitors because the turn in time is based off the scheduled start time. If they meant 10 minutes before the start of the game, they wouldn't have said "scheduled." The rule is worded the way it is to particularly cut this crap off at the knees.

If you believe the rule means you have to go by the clock, you have no choice but to issue the T here. I think you'll agree the rule is not intended to allow the home team to have the ability to always start the game with a T on the visitors.

What happens under your interpretation if I put 9:59 on the clock and just don't start it until under 10? For that matter, there is no requirement for the warm-up period to be timed at all. No, while the time on the clock is a useful tool, it is not actually determinative for this rule.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If they meant 10 minutes before the start of the game, they wouldn't have said "scheduled."

The problem is that you don't know when the game is going to actually start until it does. So, there's no way of knowing in advance when 10 minutes before the "actual" start time is. That's why the rule says "scheduled" start time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The problem is that you don't know when the game is going to actually start until it does. So, there's no way of knowing in advance when 10 minutes before the "actual" start time is. That's why the rule says "scheduled" start time.

+1

It's the second game of regional playoffs played at the same site. The start time of that game usually depends on when the first game gets done.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

+1

It's the second game of regional playoffs played at the same site. The start time of that game usually depends on when the first game gets done.

I had this situation two nights ago. When the teams from game #1 left the court, we put up enough time to allow both teams to complete the book.

Problem solved.

On another note, I've many times suggested that schools (and clubs!) have two books at each site: one for the game in use and one for the game immediately coming up. When tournaments, that work on a tight schedule, are "behind schedule", having the book filled out while the previous game is in their 4th quarter can easily help everyone get back on track.

[Camron Rust]

Unless it can be confirmed that the visiting team agreed to the earlier start with enough time to get the info in the book, I don't see where anyone can argue for the T. if If it is moved later for a delayed started (for whatever reason), they get until the "new" 10 minute mark on the countdown.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I disagree. We all use the clock because this rule eliminated this bush-league crap. You can't change the start time to force a T on the visitors because the turn in time is based off the scheduled start time. If they meant 10 minutes before the start of the game, they wouldn't have said "scheduled." The rule is worded the way it is to particularly cut this crap off at the knees.

What exactly does "scheduled" mean? It can't possibly mean the "original" time noted in some obscure computer file. Schedules change all the time.
If the clock says 15:00, that's the schedule. Otherwise, as Bob noted, a team who shows up late is going to have a T. Or, conversely, if the game gets moved up a couple hours for any reason, then neither team would be bound by the rule for any real purpose. If the game is moved back for any reason, then you'll start with a double T and each team gets one step closer to the bonus.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If you believe the rule means you have to go by the clock, you have no choice but to issue the T here. I think you'll agree the rule is not intended to allow the home team to have the ability to always start the game with a T on the visitors.

I absolutely have a choice. I'm not giving the home team an advantage not intented by the rules here. The scheduled time may have been moved up, but if I got so little notice as an official that I get on the court with 8:00 left rather than 15:00, I'm going to assume the coach got little notice as well and I'm going to give him a couple of minutes to adjust.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

What happens under your interpretation if I put 9:59 on the clock and just don't start it until under 10? For that matter, there is no requirement for the warm-up period to be timed at all. No, while the time on the clock is a useful tool, it is not actually determinative for this rule.

No big deal. I'd check with the table to see why it's not running (maybe they've moved the game back). If we're still on schedule, i'll check the book like normal. Again, my only accurate frame of reference on the court is that clock. Do you wear a watch on the court?

And the lack of requirement for the warm-up clock is precisely why the rule was written this way. And, as Bob noted, in case something screwy happens and the game has to be held off. If it was written to say "before the game starts" then you may have to retract some Ts.

1. You call a T with 9:00 left on the pregame clock for this.
2. With 1:00 on the pregame clock, the lights go out and it takes 15:00 to get started. The book was ready more than 10:00 before the game started, but not more than 10:00 before the scheduled start.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

Beat me to it.

Although I would have said "I do KNOW how to assess one though." As opposed to "I do now how..."

Yeah I kind of screwed that up. It was a typo though, as I just left the "k" off on accident. I do KNOW how to spell that word.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Yeah I kind of screwed that up. It was a typo though, as I just left the "k" off on accident. I do KNOW how to spell that word.

Coulda been worse. You coulda typed 'Kow tow'.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Coulda been worse. You coulda typed 'Kow tow'.

Hey buddy, take it to the figure skating forum.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

I think "scheduled" means "when the scoreboard clock gets to zero."

Otherwise, if a team bus is late, and the game is pushed back, we'd get a T on the visitors beore they even arrived.

In the OP -- find out why the time is off, when the teams wer notified, etc. And then decide -- it might also depend on why the book needs to be changed (and this isn't mentioned in the OP)