Can I give my partner a T??? (long)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

I heard your complaint and we will address it so please don't make me have to give you a T. I understand your frustration but we can't be raising our voice at each other".

I'm with Snaqs, Robby. As soon as you said that, you threw your partner under the bus. His credibility just went down the ol' crapper for the rest of the night, as well as probably in any future games with that particular coach. You were completely right in trying to defuse the situation. Obviously your very inexperienced partner needed your help. But there is a way to help... and making any comment at all about your partner's officiating ability isn't a help.

JMO.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm with Snaqs, Robby. As soon as you said that, you threw your partner under the bus. His credibility just went down the ol' crapper for the rest of the night, as well as probably in any future games with that particular coach. You were completely right in trying to defuse the situation. Obviously your very inexperienced partner needed your help. But there is a way to help... and making any comment at all about your partner's officiating ability isn't a help.

JMO.

Agree in principle but I think his credibility with the coach was gone as soon as he yelled at him.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

Agree in principle but I think his credibility with the coach was gone as soon as he yelled at him.

Yeah, wouldn't you have to HAVE credibility to LOSE credibility?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

Agree in principle but I think his credibility with the coach was gone as soon as he yelled at him.

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

Snaqs,
In MOST cases, an official may be able to provide "cover" for his/her partner. At the same time, in this instance, I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference what Robby would have said.

While most coaches don't know many of the nuances (back court rules, legal guarding position, etc.), MOST KNOW that counts are to be visible. Coaches sense a "rookie" from 84 feet away.

Until Mr. Hothead Harry learns to keep his emotions in check, his assigner should KNOW about his lack of mechanics knowledge and oncourt emotions. Officials expect coaches to "act the right way" (we don't say "hey, this guy is just 'learning', let's give him some leeway"). It is just as reasonable to expect the officials to do the same.

For the record, the Catholic League MS coaches are ALL volunteers. Many of the public school coaches are paid little. On the other hand, the officials get paid $30 - $40 for doing these MS games. Once again, a basic rules and mechanics knowledge is expected.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

First off, I am not going to defend this partner to our assigner/supervisor. IMHO, he has no business on the floor until his anger problem is resolved. Granted that isn't my call; however, if asked I would recommend that he not be assigned to any games.

While my OP was long, it only told part of the story. When I made the statement about "I understand your frustration" it was after he kept telling me that he only asked a question and my partner yelled at him. He told me that he only asked a question and my partner started raising his voice. At that point in time, saving my partner was way out of my hands - and to be honest with you was low on my priority list. I was extremely pissed at my partner - I wanted to jump all over him for yelling at a coach but I refrained because I did not want to make him look any worse than he already did. This is one of those HTBT moments and having never run into this situation in 20 years of officiating, I wasn't exactly prepared for this. I have had to cover partners who made bad calls, etc but have never had to try to control a "verbal fight" between a coach and an official. They don't teach us that in camp.

It is easy to sit back in my chair tonight and say I should have done this or should have done that but I am going to tell you that when it happens in real time (and you're shocked by your partner's behavior), it doesn't always come out the way it should.

I know one thing - I will never call another game with him. He is on my unofficial blocked officials list with my assigner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

+1

It seems that more concern was shown towards the coach's feelings than a very obviously inexperienced first year official. A very obviously inexperienced official that in all liklihood ain't gonna be around for a second year now either.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

+1

It seems that more concern was shown towards the coach's feelings than a very obviously inexperienced first year official. A very obviously inexperienced official that in all liklihood ain't gonna be around for a second year now either.

And I am okay with that - but he won't be around because I threw him under the bus, he won't be around because he can't handle his anger. THere is no way in the world am I taking the blame for it - we don't need officials like him on the court. Had it been rookie mistakes it would be different but this was unexcusable. If he never calls another game I am fine with that.

You can make me out the bad guy all you won't (not sure what your issue is with me but .................) but I refuse to take up for an official who acts like that. If all he had done was failed to do the count I would have gladly defended him; however, when he starts verbally attacking the coach, he is on his own. At that point in time all I am going to do is try to get the situation underhand before it escalates further.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

And I am okay with that - but he won't be around because I threw him under the bus, he won't be around because he can't handle his anger. THere is no way in the world am I taking the blame for it - we don't need officials like him on the court. Had it been rookie mistakes it would be different but this was unexcusable. If he never calls another game I am fine with that.

You can make me out the bad guy all you won't (not sure what your issue is with me but .................) but I refuse to take up for an official who acts like that. If all he had done was failed to do the count I would have gladly defended him; however, when he starts verbally attacking the coach, he is on his own. At that point in time all I am going to do is try to get the situation underhand before it escalates further.

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice. The HC asked, in a mild manner, about the 10 second count. If my partner would have said something like "well coach I had it in my head but I'll try to make it visual from now on" I believe there would have been no problem. Instead he immediately got defensive and said "I have it in my head - that should be good enough for you, you take care of your players and I will take care of calling the game". The confrontation wasn't due to the HC asking the question but the official yelling at the coach. Had the HC jumped all over him first I would have stepped in and issued a T without hesitation; however, but that isn't how it came down. Maybe I did take too long with the coach but I couldn't get my partner to shut up long enough for us to get away from the table. I asked them both to calm down and let's get to our locker rooms but my partner was going to get in the last word if it took all of half time. The only way I could get them seperated was to warn the coach that further confrontation from him was going to result in a T - he finally walked away - and my partner was still raising his voice at him as he walked off.

Maybe I am being too hard on him but when this is going on at the scorer's table with fans behind watching it unfold it is just a little much. I think folks expect coaches to be emotional but not officials. And the thing that really got under my skin is was that in the locker room he told me he had been a coach for 20 years and he was not going to let a coach question his calls. I told him that he better get use to it because I have never called a game where a coach didn't question something - it is partof the game. He said "well I will give them a T then". Sorry, but I think if he wants to officiate he needs to go to wreck ball where that kind of behavior from a official might be more acceptable.

I love to mentor young officials but we all know that not everyone who wants to be an official needs to be one. Maybe this guy has hope but I can guarantee you that had a supervisor been there during this altercation, I would have probably been calling the rest of the game by myself. I seriously doubt he would have been able to return to the game after half time.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

At what point was the official being "run over" by the coach? Based on robby's accounting of the scenario I don't see that.