Interesting End of Game Sequence

[bisonpitcher]

7th Grade Boys Tournament game last week. Team A is down 53-50 with the ball, less than 15 seconds left. I am the L. As A brings ball down the floor, partner calls a block on B32 with 9 seconds left. Knowing it was his 5th foul, he heads to the bench and rips off his jersey in disgust on the floor while shaking his head (kid had attitude problems earlier and had already been warned). Partner T's up 32, I administer the 1-1 for the block, which he misses the front end. Same player shoots technical free throws. Makes both to pull within one. A ball sideline, A hits a 15 ft. turnaround at the horn to win 54-53. As we are leaving the court, the AD for the district tells my partner that he should have just warned the kid and he determined the outcome of the game.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

7th Grade Boys Tournament game last week. Team A is down 53-50 with the ball, less than 15 seconds left. I am the L. As A brings ball down the floor, partner calls a block on B32 with 9 seconds left. Knowing it was his 5th foul, he heads to the bench and rips off his jersey in disgust on the floor while shaking his head (kid had attitude problems earlier and had already been warned). Partner T's up 32, I administer the 1-1 for the block, which he misses the front end. Same player shoots technical free throws. Makes both to pull within one. A ball sideline, A hits a 15 ft. turnaround at the horn to win 54-53. As we are leaving the court, the AD for the district tells my partner that he should have just warned the kid and he determined the outcome of the game.

Guess the AD wasn't paying attention.

[BillyMac]

How will a warning help here? Warn him, make him put his shirt back on, tuck it in, and if, and only if, he rips off his jersey in disgust a second time, as a disqualified player on the bench, in that game, then it's alright to charge him with a technical foul? Yeah, sure.

I guess the athletic director needs same help from the Mythbusters. Here is a rarely used section from the Mythbuster list:

Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins or loses, but only fairness and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore cannot look at the game objectively. Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How will a warning help here? Warn him, make him put his shirt back on, tuck it in, and if, and only if, he does it again in that game, then it's alright to charge him with a technical foul?

I guess the athletic director needs same help from the Mythbusters.

Forget the Mythubusters and just use the rules. Case book play 10.4.1SitD is the exact same play. Immediate technical foul with no warning. Note that if the head coach had been notified of the disqualification before the kid pulled his crap, the head coach would have been charged with an indirect "T" also.

[NoFussRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget the Mythubusters and just use the rules. Case book play 10.4.1SitD is the exact same play. Immediate technical foul with no warning. Note that if the head coach had been notified of the disqualification before the kid pulled his crap, the head coach would have been charged with an indirect "T" also.

Just to clarify...

"strip-tease" gets T for behavior, and coach gets an indirect for failing to control player? 4 shots and ball at division line?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by NoFussRef

Just to clarify...

"strip-tease" gets T for behavior, and coach gets an indirect for failing to control player? 4 shots and ball at division line?

After coach is notified, disqualified player is now bench personnel. So the T on the player is charged as an indirect on the coach. No free throws for an indirect..........ever.

[Rich]

The AD's opinion means just as much as the guy's in the 12th row.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget the Mythubusters.

Originally Posted by mbyron

We don't make shots, score goals, or foul opponents. Those are the actions that affect the outcome the game.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's the players' actions that determine the game. Making the calls that need to be made does not affect the game.

Originally Posted by mbyron

But good officiating is simply observing and reporting: the players' actions are the primary determinant of the outcome when officials enforce the rules and penalties properly.

From the files of the Mythbusters.

Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From the files of the Mythbusters.

Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

Forget the Mythbusters.

From the NFHS rule book re: THE INTENT AND PURPOSES OF THE RULES...

A player or team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

As we are leaving the court, the AD for the district tells my partner that he should have just warned the kid and he determined the outcome of the game.

I'll say it again. In a close game, nearly everything we do affects the outcome of a game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I'll say it again. In a close game, nearly everything we the players do affects the outcome of a game.

Fixed it for ya.

We don't make shots, score goals, or foul opponents. Those are the actions that affect the outcome the game.

[Adam]

I would take a middle school AD's comments with a huge chunk of salt. I would hope my response to his inane comment would be professional; but I can't guarantee it.

Around here, everything is assigned by assigners, so I'd be on the phone before I left the parking lot.

Not to blunt any criticism of me, I couldn't care less. If the assigner doesn't want me making this call, I won't be working his ms games. I'd make the call to complain about the AD trying to inject himself into the officiating.

[bisonpitcher]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would take a middle school AD's comments with a huge chunk of salt. I would hope my response to his inane comment would be professional; but I can't guarantee it.

Around here, everything is assigned by assigners, so I'd be on the phone before I left the parking lot.

Not to blunt any criticism of me, I couldn't care less. If the assigner doesn't want me making this call, I won't be working his ms games. I'd make the call to complain about the AD trying to inject himself into the officiating.

Let me clarify about the AD. He isn't the AD for the site, he is the AD at the district level for a very large district over 3 high schools and 5 middle schools(over 20,000 students). He also happens to be my boss (I coach at the HS level in the district). While I didn't agree with his comment, he was very polite about it and didn't go out of his way to say it or do it in front of others (he was watching the game from the hallway that the locker rooms were in). This was a young, first year official and I think he just thought he was trying to help the guy out. Again, I don't agree with his comment, but I also want to clarify the tone/context of the conversation. Also, both schools were MS from the district, so it wasn't like it benefitted a school outside the district at the expense of one of 'his' schools.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fixed it for ya.

Mbyron, first of all, never touch someone else's quote (except to put "[sic]" within it). That's bad form, and it can easily lead to misrepresentation. If you disagree with a quote, simply state how.

That said, I believe you missed my point.

In a close game, the calls we make in the first three quarters can affect the game's outcome every bit as the last one. If we do our jobs correctly, then people have less to complain about legitimately, but whether we're right or wrong, our actions and reactions affect a game's outcome. To say that we have no effect -- or suggest that we should have no effect -- is very myopic.

In the OP, Bison's partner did the right thing. The AD's attitude that one call affected the outcome of a game is very myopic. Had he not called the technical, he would have affected the outcome just as much, along with all the other activity of the game -- including the calls.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Mbyron, first of all, never touch someone else's quote (except to put "[sic]" within it). That's bad form, and it can easily lead to misrepresentation. If you disagree with a quote, simply state how.

You're really going to have to get over this. It's done all the time in here, sometimes to make a point, and others to be funny. Deal with it, or walk away; but stop whining about it. We were doing it long before you came along.