Elbows

[RKBUmp]

Never reffed a basketball game in my life, so dont know all the ins and outs of the rules, but would like to get some clarification on elbows.

Son plays on an NYS 12-13 basketball team. They played a team yesterday that had 2 very large kids for the age, probably at least 6', one weighed I would guess 165, the other 180 or so. We have 1 kid that is maybe 5' 10", the others are all around 5'5" to 5'7".

The bigger and heavier of the players on the other team no one could handle, he would just use his size and weight to force people around. When he would get a rebound, he would immediately pull the ball into the middle of his chest, stick his elbows straight out and then spin. 4 of our players took elbows in the face, 2 in the cheek, one in the mouth and another in the nose. These hits were hard enough that 3 of the players ended up on thier backs, and the one that got hit in the nose had a bloody nose.

It was a kid reffing the game, and at the half our coach went and talked to him about the player throwing elbows. According to the official, if he had been flinging his elbows, it would be one thing, but since he was holding them stationary and just spinning his body it was legal.

Thoughts, legal or illegal?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Never reffed a basketball game in my life, so dont know all the ins and outs of the rules, but would like to get some clarification on elbows.

Son plays on an NYS 12-13 basketball team. They played a team yesterday that had 2 very large kids for the age, probably at least 6', one weighed I would guess 165, the other 180 or so. We have 1 kid that is maybe 5' 10", the others are all around 5'5" to 5'7".

The bigger and heavier of the players on the other team no one could handle, he would just use his size and weight to force people around. When he would get a rebound, he would immediately pull the ball into the middle of his chest, stick his elbows straight out and then spin. 4 of our players took elbows in the face, 2 in the cheek, one in the mouth and another in the nose. These hits were hard enough that 3 of the players ended up on thier backs, and the one that got hit in the nose had a bloody nose.

It was a kid reffing the game, and at the half our coach went and talked to him about the player throwing elbows. According to the official, if he had been flinging his elbows, it would be one thing, but since he was holding them stationary and just spinning his body it was legal.

Thoughts, legal or illegal?

This is going to be a quick repsonse because Bonnie and I are about to leave for Andy and Mark, Jr.'s 05:30pmEDT baseball game. I am going to preface my response with the following statement: This is a play that has to be seen and not described to give an accurate answer. But from you description, my first response would be a player control foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ump, excessively swinging the elbows is a violation, NFHS 9-13. By definition, "excessively" means "faster than the torso is rotating" (4-24-8a). It is legal, to hold the ball to your chest or under your chin with your elbows extended (9-13-2), but that doesn't make it legal to contact an opponent with those elbows.

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called against the player with the ball. It's something that you'd have to see to give an informed opinion, obviously; but (1) it's legal to hold the ball like that and (2) it's not legal to knock somebody on their butt by putting an elbow into their chest....

...eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bktballref

..eye, nose, cheek, chin, ear, etc.

Thanks. I think I covered that, though. . .

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If a player has the ball in that position and pivots, planting his elbow into an opponent's face or chest, it's possible that there should be a personal foul called

[BktBallRef]

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Judas Preist...so sensitive.

Hmmmm. I don't see the smiley in your post. It must be stuck up your. . .

[TravelinMan]

Ump, just curious, where upstate? I used to officiate in the Albany area. I was part of IAABO 36 and you had to be at least 18 to call. Youngest official I ever worked with was in college and he was a decent official. All officials had to take written test; new officials were partnered with more experienced officials. How young was your ref?

[RKBUmp]

I am actually in AZ, NYS stands for National Youth Sports.

The officiating is all over the place, sometimes we get a great ref, other times we are pretty much playing without one on the floor. I would guess this kid is probably 16-18. At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I am actually in AZ, NYS stands for National Youth Sports.

The officiating is all over the place, sometimes we get a great ref, other times we are pretty much playing without one on the floor. I would guess this kid is probably 16-18. At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Two things.
1. Never tell me the foul count is lopsided. We can discuss individual plays and calls, but not a foul count. I don't care about it.
2. Never count out loud to me. You'll get one quick warning, after that we'll be shooting free throws. Of course, I'll call three seconds if the play warrants it and you'll see my hand swinging on all other counts.

edited: I was thinking you coached for some reason. Went back and re-read the OP. I wouldn't have even heard you.

[TravelinMan]

RKB Ump - you seem very frustrated and powerless about changing things

For your own peace of mind do 2 things:

(1) speak to your coach and see about getting more qualified officials to ref your games - find out which association assigns varsity or sub-varsity games in your area.

(2) get your hands on some rule books - you may be surprised by what constitutes 3 seconds, backcourt violations, travelling......etc. Knowledge is power

Good luck!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

At one point in the first half he had called 6 fouls on our team, and not 1 on the other even though we had kids with loose teeth and bloody noses. I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Hey, if you're an umpire, do you believe in evening out calls too? Maybe call a few outs at first when a player was safe.....just to make sure the calls are even?

I got news for you, fanboy. We don't worry about how many fouls each team has. We worry about getting the call right.

Great job. Try to intimidate a 16 year old kid into giving your team some more calls. Unfortunately you're a typical parent and a typical fanboy.

The true "you" just came out.

Sad.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

I finally said something as he ran by about it was some pretty lopsided foul calling, 6-0. He finally started calling some on the other team, but I think by the end of the game is was like 9 on us, 4 on the them. He also never once called a 3 second violation the entire game, even though their big guy had pitched a tent in the key. At one point I was counting outloud, loud enough for him to hear me and got to a count of 25 where the kid had never stepped out of the key.

Completely lame. If I were working that game, you wouldn't have seen the end of the game.

[TravelinMan]

Be cool, JR. Not worth getting upset about.

RKBUmp

From your op, it sounds like the other team was outrebounding you because of their size. You can counteract this by blocking out your opponent (getting inside position) BEFORE they get rebound. Not wait until the other team gets the rebound. Does your coach teach your team this?

Once the other team gets the rebound, if your team is getting elbowed as you say, it sounds like your team was trying to harass the bigger man - try to force a held ball, slap the ball. Am I right? Very often the DEFENSIVE player will commit a foul here. The rebounder obviously has been taught well - pull the ball into their chest and pivot away from the defender. This is perfectly legal. It is only if the elbows are flying wildly and a defender is hit will I call a player control foul. But again, as other officials have said, it is a play you have to see.

And RKBUmp - get a hold of those books - they are not expensive (rules, case book, illustrated qre most helpful)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Be cool, JR. Not worth getting upset about.

I wasn't upset. I was just hoping that the next time he had the urge to go after some young official trying to learn the game, maybe he might think a little about how ridiculous what's he's doing really is.

For some reasons, the parents/fanboys never do think about things like that though. And that's why we lose a ton of good, young officials every year. That's what's sad imo.