What's The Correct Call ???

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, he didn't. After the fumble, he never did anything that constitutes control. He certainly never "batted it to the floor," as it was already on the floor. A "controlled" tap does not equal player control, no matter how controlled it is.

Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Disagree. BillyMac said the player deliberately and intentionally pushed the ball away from the defender. What if the fumbled ball was bouncing and A1 deliberately tapped or pushed the ball away from the defender once or more than once so the defender couldn't get it? Would you not have a double dribble?

No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No. Tapping or pushing the ball do not consitute control unless they're part of a dribble. Pushing a bouncing ball, likewise, does not constitute control unless it's part of a controlled dribble.

How to judge this? If the player is able to bat/push the ball between consecutive bounces, I'd call it control. If it bounces more than once between dribbles *, I'm more likely to judge it a continued fumble.

* a rule of thumb with no known rules backing or contradiction.

I understand what you are saying. But in the context of a dribble/fumble situation we know that if a player ends a dribble then fumbles he may recover (catch) the ball but could not track down the fumble and then resume dribbling. Keep in mind in BillyMacs situation the player tapped the ball more than once consecutively all within a few feet. In my mind I'm seeing that as control. I guess this is a htbt situation. Your turn.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I understand what you are saying. But in the context of a dribble/fumble situation we know that if a player ends a dribble then fumbles he may recover (catch) the ball but could not track down the fumble and then resume dribbling. Keep in mind in BillyMacs situation the player tapped the ball more than once consecutively all within a few feet. In my mind I'm seeing that as control. I guess this is a htbt situation. Your turn.

He's either holding it or he's not. We both agree he's not.

He's either dribbling, or he's not. Let's change to say the ball is bouncing. If A1, in the course of chasing the fumble, bats the ball away from the defenders and has to continue chasing it himself, he's not dribbling. He's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Even if he had been dribbling before, this would now be an interrupted dribble (which by definition does not include player control).

Swing away.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

He's either holding it or he's not. We both agree he's not.

He's either dribbling, or he's not. Let's change to say the ball is bouncing. If A1, in the course of chasing the fumble, bats the ball away from the defenders and has to continue chasing it himself, he's not dribbling. He's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Even if he had been dribbling before, this would now be an interrupted dribble (which by definition does not include player control).

Swing away.

Okay! Again, let's stay within BillyMac's description of the play. TWO defenders close enough to pick up the ball. From there let's go with your change that the ball is bouncing. A1 taps the ball away from the first defender and then again from the second defender all within a few feet. Is
A1 in control of the ball? Just from the description I'm thinking, yes. I agree with you if A1 bats the ball well away from the first defender just so he can't get the ball and the chase continues across the court with A1 again batting the ball away from the second defender then I agree he's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Make sense or did I whiff?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Okay! Again, let's stay within BillyMac's description of the play. TWO defenders close enough to pick up the ball. From there let's go with your change that the ball is bouncing. A1 taps the ball away from the first defender and then again from the second defender all within a few feet. Is
A1 in control of the ball? Just from the description I'm thinking, yes. I agree with you if A1 bats the ball well away from the first defender just so he can't get the ball and the chase continues across the court with A1 again batting the ball away from the second defender then I agree he's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Make sense or did I whiff?

Within a few feet is not significant. A player can bat the ball back and forth between his own legs and not be in control. Judgment call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Okay! Again, let's stay within BillyMac's description of the play. TWO defenders close enough to pick up the ball. From there let's go with your change that the ball is bouncing. A1 taps the ball away from the first defender and then again from the second defender all within a few feet. Is
A1 in control of the ball? Just from the description I'm thinking, yes. I agree with you if A1 bats the ball well away from the first defender just so he can't get the ball and the chase continues across the court with A1 again batting the ball away from the second defender then I agree he's merely knocking the ball away from someone else. Make sense or did I whiff?

JAR is right, you have to judge whether it's a dribble or not. The criteria I gave is a rule of thumb; it's the same rule of thumb I use to determine whether a player is a dribbler for the purposes of 9-3-1 Note (OOB violation).