Kicked a Player Control Foul

[tref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

And you still should not call what you did not see. Sometimes stuff happens we don't see. Should we just start guessing? Try to interpret reactions? Hmmm, I just saw a coach snap a look at me so I'll be he was getting personal about my last call and I'm guessing he called me an incompetent jerk so WHACK! ???

Nah never said ANY of that...

Was just offering a solution to a problem as "tape dont lie."

Many times we say I didnt see it so I didnt call it, pack it up & head home never to think about it again. Personally, I want to see:
1. If I did really miss it
2. Why did I miss it
3. What can I do to not miss it next time

But hey, thats just me...

[chartrusepengui]

Ok, I "misinterpreted" your post!! I'll check the tape!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Nah never said ANY of that...

Was just offering a solution to a problem as "tape dont lie."

Many times we say I didnt see it so I didnt call it, pack it up & head home never to think about it again. Personally, I want to see:
1. If I did really miss it
2. Why did I miss it
3. What can I do to not miss it next time

Sound advice imo.....fwiw.

You learn from the tape so that (hopefully) you won't miss a similar call in the future.

[Rich]

I know I'm bordering on heresy in this post, but it's possible to get this foul without actually seeing the elbow strike the head. Just as it's possible to get the trip without seeing the leg clip the other leg (or the heel).

I still work a lot of 2-person with gyms that have absolutely no room on the endlines. I do what I can to get open looks and I will move to wherever I need to move, and yet...I'll have a player drive and a defender coming from behind in my primary (as the lead) and the ball-handler goes down as if he's clearly been tripped from behind. Partner has no whistle cause he's across the court not looking at the ball and I'm screened even though I've moved to get as best an angle as possible.

So my choices are (1) let it go and deal with the aftermath or (2) put all the pieces of the puzzle and conclude that there had to be a foul. There are some kids who could possibly fake a foul, but when it happens very quickly with a very spontaneous reaction, the odds of it are almost zero.

At times I've chosen (1) -- where I simply can't be sure there's a foul -- and other times I've chosen (2) -- where it's obvious to me that a foul existed even though my eyeballs didn't quite see it. I will say that I've never had a player or coach complain when I've chosen (2) and I've had people say what a great "get" that was (and then I feel like a complete fraud, BTW).

I'm not fond of guessing (even an educated one) when I officiate. Not at all. But there are simply situations where 2-person officiating or the court or even a mistake on my part puts me out of position and sometimes I feel I gotta do what I gotta do. And I'll say that the number of times where I feel this way working 3-person is pretty darned near zero.

I'd never teach this, BTW. It'd be too easy for many people to misinterpret what I'm trying to say here and I'm certain a lot of people will here, anyway. But I figured I'd open it up for discussion.

In the OP's situation? The kid got hit in the head. Many times that happens so quickly that (1) you don't see it and (2) you don't react to it, regardless if you did see it. I've had players get poked in the eye and by the time I've pieced it together it's too late. Many times it's accidental and very quick/slight contact that just hit a very sensitive place on the player's body. Those get missed at every level and will continue to get missed no matter how hard you work at positioning -- and it sounds like the OP was happy with his positioning on the play. Getting the tape is still a great idea.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know I'm bordering on heresy in this post, but it's possible to get this foul without actually seeing the elbow strike the head. Just as it's possible to get the trip without seeing the leg clip the other leg (or the heel).

I still work a lot of 2-person with gyms that have absolutely no room on the endlines. I do what I can to get open looks and I will move to wherever I need to move, and yet...I'll have a player drive and a defender coming from behind in my primary (as the lead) and the ball-handler goes down as if he's clearly been tripped from behind. Partner has no whistle cause he's across the court not looking at the ball and I'm screened even though I've moved to get as best an angle as possible.

So my choices are (1) let it go and deal with the aftermath or (2) put all the pieces of the puzzle and conclude that there had to be a foul. There are some kids who could possibly fake a foul, but when it happens very quickly with a very spontaneous reaction, the odds of it are almost zero.

At times I've chosen (1) -- where I simply can't be sure there's a foul -- and other times I've chosen (2) -- where it's obvious to me that a foul existed even though my eyeballs didn't quite see it. I will say that I've never had a player or coach complain when I've chosen (2) and I've had people say what a great "get" that was (and then I feel like a complete fraud, BTW).

I'm not fond of guessing (even an educated one) when I officiate. Not at all. But there are simply situations where 2-person officiating or the court or even a mistake on my part puts me out of position and sometimes I feel I gotta do what I gotta do. And I'll say that the number of times where I feel this way working 3-person is pretty darned near zero.

I'd never teach this, BTW. It'd be too easy for many people to misinterpret what I'm trying to say here and I'm certain a lot of people will here, anyway. But I figured I'd open it up for discussion.

In the OP's situation? The kid got hit in the head. Many times that happens so quickly that (1) you don't see it and (2) you don't react to it, regardless if you did see it. I've had players get poked in the eye and by the time I've pieced it together it's too late. Many times it's accidental and very quick/slight contact that just hit a very sensitive place on the player's body. Those get missed at every level and will continue to get missed no matter how hard you work at positioning -- and it sounds like the OP was happy with his positioning on the play. Getting the tape is still a great idea.

I agree. The hands are quicker than the eye, and it's almost impossible to tell whether a swipe near the face makes contact or not. If it's the same amount of contact on the arm, it probably doesn't matter -- it's not going to affect play. But, a relatively minor amount of contact on the face / nose / eye can become an advantage.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree. The hands are quicker than the eye, and it's almost impossible to tell whether a swipe near the face makes contact or not. If it's the same amount of contact on the arm, it probably doesn't matter -- it's not going to affect play. But, a relatively minor amount of contact on the face / nose / eye can become an advantage.

And to follow up with my previous heresy -- if I can piece it together in a timely manner, I'm whistling the foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And to follow up with my previous heresy -- if I can piece it together in a timely manner, I'm whistling the foul.

Agree.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree.

Especially in cursed two man!

[JRutledge]

Rich,

This is why it is called judgment. We are not going to see every little contact, but if we know the contact took place we have to decide if a foul was committed. It is really the case in basketball considering angles affect a lot of actions. But we can know there was contact on a play without actually seeing the contact in my opinion.

Peace

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rich,

This is why it is called judgment. We are not going to see every little contact, but if we know the contact took place we have to decide if a foul was committed. It is really the case in basketball considering angles affect a lot of actions. But we can know there was contact on a play without actually seeing the contact in my opinion.

Peace

I totally agree with JRut here...we can assume that the offensive player made contact with the elbow in the face of the defender.