Fight in girls game - sort of

[tref]

Yezzir! Unsporting technical fouls are non-contact.
Definitions, definitions, definitions.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even though this was a sixth grade competitive game rather than a sixth grade non-competitive game, I probably would have handled it it the same way.

Let me explain the terminology. Around here, there are two "types" of kids programs (except for a very few school MS leagues). They are usually referred to as "competitive" and "recreational". In fact, the "official" name of some of the leagues include the word "competitive" in their titles. While the teams in the recreational organizations certainly try to win their games, their emphasis is on having fun, learning the game and practicing good sportsmanship. Most of the kids in the competitive groups are the better players (or kids whose parents think they're better players ) and their parents are willing to pay much, much more in registration and uniform fees, plus there's quite a bit of travel around the Metro area. The competitive programs started up about 10 years ago. Prior to that, all kids played in the same programs and there was much more disparity between the playing skills of the players.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Let me explain the terminology. Around here, there are two "types" of kids programs (except for a very few school MS leagues). They are usually referred to as "competitive" and "recreational". In fact, the "official" name of some of the leagues include the word "competitive" in their titles. While the teams in the recreational organizations certainly try to win their games, their emphasis is on having fun, learning the game and practicing good sportsmanship. Most of the kids in the competitive groups are the better players (or kids whose parents think they're better players ) and their parents are willing to pay much, much more in registration and uniform fees, plus there's quite a bit of travel around the Metro area. The competitive programs started up about 10 years ago. Prior to that, all kids played in the same programs and there was much more disparity between the playing skills of the players.

And let me explain my thinking.

All sixth grade age and under games are recreational or should be imo. The people that want to label them "competitive" are taking themselves way too seriously. We run into them all the time here during local club tournaments. They all think their 10 year old are playing in the NBA finals.

There's nothing the matter with trying to have the kids play within the skill level they have at a particular time of their development, but the individual skill levels can change real quickly when they're that age. But no matter what, the focus of the coaches should be to (1) let the kids have fun (2)impart some life lessons, and (3) increase individual skills. Winning games should come in around 4323rd place at that age.

Hell, even Calipari doesn't offer the kids scholarships until they're in the seventh grade.

But that's just me generally on all kids sports, Mark, at that age.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

4.18.2
"A1 dunks over B1 and then taunts B1. B1 retaliates and punches A1. RULING: Both A1 and B1 are charged with a flagrant technical foul for fighting and are disqualified. A1's action is defined as fighting when the taunting caused B1 to retaliate by fighting. (10-3; 10-3-6c: 10-3-8)"

I charge the defender with both an intentional foul for the push and a flagrant technical when what she says causes the tall girl to retaliate by fighting.

+1

I agree - both players get tossed. If the verbal taunt leads to a fight it's treated as fighting.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

+1

I agree - both players get tossed. If the verbal taunt leads to a fight it's treated as fighting.

And if I had heard her taunt the other player, that's probably what I would have done. But I didn't hear what she said. She might have just said, "Sorry" or something else like that. Maybe the tall girl was just upset that she got pushed and wanted to retaliate and the words meant nothing at all.

My point is that I wasn't going to assume the defender taunted the tall girl. All I would need is for her coach to ask me what she said to deserve an ejection and I'd have to reply, "DUH, I dunno?"

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

All sixth grade age and under games are recreational or should be imo. The people that want to label them "competitive" are taking themselves way too seriously. We run into them all the time here during local club tournaments. They all think their 10 year old are playing in the NBA finals.

Certainly, I agree, but around here the competitive groups start at 5th grade for both boys and girls. There's nothing I can do about it except make sure our local kids rec league (of which I am a Board member) acts in the "correct" manner for that age level, which it does. In fact, we start at 3rd grade.

BTW - some of the "competitive" teams actually hire coaches - former college players, etc. I've seen that practice go as low as 6th grade. Unbelievable.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Unbelievable.

And unfortunate.

[RookieDude]

...is it sort of like...

Competitive = "A" Squad (varsity)

Recreational = "B" Squad (JV)

...?

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even though this was a sixth grade competitive game rather than a sixth grade non-competitive game, I probably would have handled it it the same way.

C'mon Jurassic, we all know by now, ALL Mark's games are in "competitive" leagues, even those that end in 35 point blow-outs!

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The tall girl, much to her credit, just turned around and tossed the ball to me. The defender said something to the tall girl (I couldn't hear it) and the tall girl slapped her right across the face!

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

And if I had heard her taunt the other player, that's probably what I would have done. But I didn't hear what she said. She might have just said, "Sorry" or something else like that. Maybe the tall girl was just upset that she got pushed and wanted to retaliate and the words meant nothing at all.

My point is that I wasn't going to assume the defender taunted the tall girl. All I would need is for her coach to ask me what she said to deserve an ejection and I'd have to reply, "DUH, I dunno?"

I think you're burying your head in the sand here and failing to punish the player most at fault. The tall girl goes from cool, calm and collected to slap fighting and you're going to assume the defender was apologizing? I don't think you need to have heard what was said here as it was obviously enough to provoke a fight.

As to what to tell the coach, "It doesn't matter what she said, she provoked a fight."

[APG]

Wondering why you decided not the eject everyone who came off the bench? As JR pointed out, by rule, you should of tossed everyone all those that came off the bench during a potential fight situation. I'd consider someone getting slapped in the face a potential fight situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think you're burying your head in the sand here and failing to punish the player most at fault. The tall girl goes from cool, calm and collected to slap fighting and you're going to assume the defender was apologizing? I don't think you need to have heard what was said here as it was obviously enough to provoke a fight.

As to what to tell the coach, "It doesn't matter what she said, she provoked a fight."

Sorry, but I think it does matter what she said. If you don't know, you can't do anything with it.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, but I think it does matter what she said. If you don't know, you can't do anything with it.

10-3-6c "A player shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: c. Baiting or taunting an opponent."

Whatever she said, it baited her opponent which is an unsporting act. Committing an unsporting act that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting is considered fighting by rule. Ergo, it doesn't matter what she said.

People generally don't hit people who are apologizing to them. Assuming good intentions by a player who just shoved an opponent in the back stretches my credulity to the breaking point.

[RobbyinTN]

You also do not know for sure that the tall girl was nice to the official but not so much to the other player. Unless I hear the smaller girl say something I can't automatically assume she said something. I can't call what I don't see and I can't call what I don't hear. Yes, most likely the girl taunted her but without definite knowledge I am not going to call it.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

You also do not know for sure that the tall girl was nice to the official but not so much to the other player. Unless I hear the smaller girl say something I can't automatically assume she said something. I can't call what I don't see and I can't call what I don't hear. Yes, most likely the girl taunted her but without definite knowledge I am not going to call it.

Thank you. My position exactly. Maybe she did just apologize and the tall girl just wanted to act "macho" (or whatever the female equivalent of "macho" is - "DeGenerist", perhaps?) and slapped her for that reason.

On the other hand, maybe the defender said something that would be considered extremely taunting to a girl that age, like "You're fat".