Fight in girls game - sort of

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

You also do not know for sure that the tall girl was nice to the official but not so much to the other player. Unless I hear the smaller girl say something I can't automatically assume she said something. I can't call what I don't see and I can't call what I don't hear. Yes, most likely the girl taunted her but without definite knowledge I am not going to call it.

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

Really? Imagine this: the tall player made up her mind to slap the defender when the original foul occurred. She then tossed away the ball, heard the defender say "Sorry", and then slapped her anyway.

Is that what really happened? I dunno. But the point is it is at least possible. In any case, I can't assume the defender taunted her without knowing what she said. I am not a lawyer, (and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but I'm sure that's how it would play out in a courtroom.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Whatever she said, it baited her opponent which is an unsporting act.

And you know that for sure....how?

You'd get blasted out of the water if you ever wrote an incident up like that. All you can put down on a report is what you know. FACTS! and you don't have any proof that a derogatory remark was made to her opponent. You're guessing.

You can't climb on your high horse unless you have a high horse around to climb on. And there ain't a high horse in sight in this one.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

I agree with Eastshire. I've had Ts in the past where I didnt hear exactly what was said but it was clear that there was baiting, taunting going on.

Given the context of the situation, its a clear case of baiting the opposing team's best player and it worked in getting them tossed from the game.

IMO, to say that you didnt hear what was said is a cop-out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, but I think it does matter what she said. If you don't know, you can't do anything with it.

+1.

We aren't supposed to guess in situations like this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

IMO, to say that you didnt hear what was said is a cop-out.

Howinthehell can that be a cop-out if it's true?

Lah me.........another mind-reader.......

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Howinthehell can that be a cop-out if it's true?

Lah me.........another mind-reader.......

Its a cop-out to not doing anything about what you observed. And it has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with observing the situation.

Others can disagree. That's fine. I know how I would have reacted, have reacted, and will continue to react in similar situations. And I've written up incidents for Ts where I didnt hear exactly what was said and have never been "blasted out of the water" or even heard a single word back from my assignors or anyone else.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Others can disagree. That's fine. I know how I would have reacted, have reacted, and will continue to react in similar situations. And I've written up incidents for Ts where I didnt hear exactly what was said and have never been "blasted out of the water" or even heard a single word back from my assignors or anyone else.

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

Agree, you have to have facts. I am, and have been, VERY comfortable justifying my decisions based on the facts at hand, even without hearing exactly what was said. And apparently so have the people I've had to submit reports to and deal with in 4 different associations.

You're right, we will never agree on this and fortunately, we don't have to.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

[JugglingReferee]

I've seen an official issue calls and when asked about what was done/said to warrant the penalty, the official could not give answer. Yikes!

Just bad news, no matter how one tries to justify it.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

But how do you know the player committed an unsporting act if you didn't hear what they said? Short of a player doing something physical (bump chest, give the finger, etc.) wouldn't you have to hear what the player said to determine if it was unsporting or not? What if the player was apologizing for the push in the back, but the fouled player decided she was going to get her payback no matter what and thus the slap to the face?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've seen an official issue calls and when asked about what was done/said to warrant the penalty, the official could not give answer. Yikes!

Just bad news, no matter how one tries to justify it.

Well if you can't give an answer then no you have no business calling it.

Good thing I'm capable of giving more than adequate answers that justify my decisions to all who matter.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Well if you can't give an answer then no you have no business calling it.

And that's exactly my point. If someone asked me what the defender said to qualify as a taunt, I wouldn't be able to give an answer. Therefore, according to your own statement above, I would have no business calling it.

BTW - the defender made no gestures or anything like it. The only thing that moved when she spoke was her mouth.

[APG]

Mark, you never answered the question I asked earlier. By rule, you should of ejected the bench personnel that came off the bench, save the coaches whom I'm assuming were in peace keeping roles, due to a potential fight. Why did you decide to set aside that rule (maybe it's a local rule for your league)?