Legal dribble or not?

[just another ref]

It should be mentioned (shouldn't it?) that this one where the case book adds totally another dimension to the rule. The illegal dribble violation in the rule book is for only ending a dribble and starting another. 4.15.4 D as noted above states it is a violation for the ball being touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble. Yet touching it twice does not end the dribble. So why is this a violation? This being said, I have always called/seen it called for two touches, regardless of the direction. In other words, a bat over the head (upward) is not necessary. What I see most often is the ball slapped horizontally from one hand to the other, then pushed to the floor.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It should be mentioned (shouldn't it?) that this one where the case book adds totally another dimension to the rule. The illegal dribble violation in the rule book is for only ending a dribble and starting another. 4.15.4 D as noted above states it is a violation for the ball being touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble. Yet touching it twice does not end the dribble. So why is this a violation? This being said, I have always called/seen it called for two touches, regardless of the direction. In other words, a bat over the head (upward) is not necessary. What I see most often is the ball slapped horizontally from one hand to the other, then pushed to the floor.

The violation is stated in 4-15-2, "a player may bat the ball into the air" provided he does not touch it twice with his hands before it hits the floor. This is the only place I know of where the prohibition is spelled out.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The violation is stated in 4-15-2, "a player may bat the ball into the air" provided he does not touch it twice with his hands before it hits the floor. This is the only place I know of where the prohibition is spelled out.

Well.........yeah, I suppose so, but not exactly spelled out. It still does not say that the second touch ends the dribble, and the only violation in 9-5 is starting a second dribble after the first one has ended.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Well.........yeah, I suppose so, but not exactly spelled out. It still does not say that the second touch ends the dribble, and the only violation in 9-5 is starting a second dribble after the first one has ended.

I see what you're getting at now. You're right, the violation isn't spelled out in the section on violations. And really, there's no penalty listed in 4-15-2. To me, the case play makes it clear what play 4-15-2 is referring to, so I'd be inclined not to call it a violation unless the ball was batted into the air first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I see what you're getting at now. You're right, the violation isn't spelled out in the section on violations. And really, there's no penalty listed in 4-15-2. To me, the case play makes it clear what play 4-15-2 is referring to, so I'd be inclined not to call it a violation unless the ball was batted into the air first.

Got it. You're both saying it's legal for a player during the dribble to push the ball down to the floor and then reach down with the other hand and push the ball down again before it touched the floor from the first push. Doing so is perfectly legal because the ball was never batted into the air first.

Got it.

Well, you and JAR are certainly entitled to have your own opinions. And that's all I'm going to say about that. You already know my opinion.

I'm done.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got it. You're both saying it's legal for a player during the dribble to push the ball down to the floor and then reach down with the other hand and push the ball down again before it touched the floor from the first push. Doing so is perfectly legal because the ball was never batted into the air first.

Got it.

Well, you and JAR are certainly entitled to have your own opinions. And that's all I'm going to say about that. You already know my opinion.

I'm done.

It's not my opinion, it's how I read the rule. Although, I admit the wording in case play 4.15.4D confuses me. This case play is the only place where this is mentioned, there's no rule that correspondingly tells you it's a violation.

Without the case play, I wouldn't even question my reading of the rule. The only rule referenced is 9.5, which says nothing about this play; unless it somewhere states that touching the ball twice between bounces ends the dribble. Does it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got it. You're both saying it's legal for a player during the dribble to push the ball down to the floor and then reach down with the other hand and push the ball down again before it touched the floor from the first push. Doing so is perfectly legal because the ball was never batted into the air first.

During the dribble is the key phrase. If a player is holding the ball, then pushes it toward the floor, he may do anything he wants before it hits the floor, so long as he has not moved his pivot foot.

I'm done.

He'll be back. He likes us.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hmmmm. Do you really think Scrappy lied to you in the OP when he said that A1 released the ball to start a dribble? That's a given!

Why can't people just take Scrappy's question at face value instead of bringing in things that have got nothin to do with what he's asking? Scrappy said the dribble started. That's good enough for me. What constitutes the start of a dribble is a completely different conversation that has nothing to do with this thread.

It has everything to do with the conversation. If it wasn't really a dribble at all, then the rules about what can occur during a dribble are not relevant.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Forget about the start of the dribble. Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Think of the definition of a pass for a moment. It is defined as a pass only if it goes to (touches) another player. If the two rules have any consistency in the meanings of words, it wouldn't be a dribble unless it touched the floor. That said, I think the spirit of the rule would lead to it being a dribble when it goes off the foot after being deliberately released in that direction in the form of a dribble.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Is there a limit as to how many times you can dribble off your foot without the ball touching the floor? Can you go from one end to the other doing that? Or maybe continually off your knee like a soccer player as long as the knee isn't moving when the ball hits?

Well, I'd say that is traveling....based on the concept posed in the case play covering a player tossing the ball from hand to hand without moving their pivot foot. The basis behind the traveling rule is that a player may not move with the ball unless they're dribbling.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think anytime the ball is touched while not on the floor it is being batted in the air. "In the air" is the location of the ball, not the direction given by the bat.

I disagree. The word is actually "into". Batted into the air is a direction.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't think that's what is meant by 4-15-2, otherwise it would be a completely redundant rule. Why would they need to say a player can "bat it in the air," unless they have trajectory in mind?

You need to look back at the history of the game to know where this rule came from. At some time, long ago, the rules stated that a player couldn't run while holding the ball. There were no other restrictions. As a result, players would run while repeatedly tapping the ball into the air without letting it hit the floor. Still not happy with the balance of offense/defense, the rules were then revised to say that they could tap the ball into the air but couldn't touch it a second time before it hit the floor.

Once you know that history, it should become apparent that "into the air" is a direction.

All that said, a dribble is defined as pushing/batting the ball "to the floor". If it doesn't go to the floor, it is either not a dribble or an illegal dribble.