Shot Clock Question ???

[BillyMac]

Thanks everyone.

Had a prep school game yesterday in which the shot clock operator, a high school age young lady, started the shot clock when the ball went through the basket. My partner and I noticed this after a few complaints from the crowd regarding differences between our ten second counts, and the time left on the 35 second shot clock. My partner noted that the shot clock was winding down when the ball was still out of bounds after a made basket. We got together during a timeout to discuss this, but since neither of us are NCAA officials, we decided that she probably knew the rule better than we did, so we let it go. She was wrong. We were wrong. Now I know the rule, and I will email the rule to my partner. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." By the way, after further review, the correct procedure is buried in the cursory handout we all receive noting the hybrid rule differences for these prep school games, so I can't blame my screwup on bad training.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks everyone.

Had a prep school game yesterday in which the shot clock operator, a high school age young lady, started the shot clock when the ball went through the basket. My partner and I noticed this after a few complaints from the crowd regarding differences between our ten second counts, and the time left on the 35 second shot clock. My partner noted that the shot clock was winding down when the ball was still out of bounds after a made basket. We got together during a timeout to discuss this, but since neither of us are NCAA officials, we decided that she probably knew the rule better than we did, so we let it go. She was wrong. We were wrong. Now I know the rule, and I will email the rule to my partner. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." By the way, after further review, the correct procedure is buried in the cursory handout we all receive noting the hybrid rule differences for these prep school games, so I can't blame my screwup on bad training.

Thats the one.

[chseagle]

#4 is the most realistic answer as player/team control has to be established for the shot clock. The game clock can be started after the ball gets tapped, however for shot clock the ball must be controlled via inbounds pass in order to be started after an OOB.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know more about directing major Hollywood motion pictures than I do about NCAA rules. Here in the Land of Steady Habits, prep schools use a hybrid version of NCAA and NFHS rules, that include a shot clock. Our interpreter does give us a cursory handout on shot clock rules that includes situations like held balls, and kicked balls, but he doesn't include some of the more simpler stuff, like when the short clock starts.

After a made field goal, when does the shot clock start?
1) When the ball goes through the basket.
2) When the ball is at the disposal of the throwin player out of bounds.
3) When the ball is touched, after the throwin, inbounds.
4) When the ball is controlled (player control and team control), after the throwin, by a player inbounds.
5) Other.
6) Don't know.
7) Who cares?

You're right I am horrified by this

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks everyone.

Had a prep school game yesterday in which the shot clock operator, a high school age young lady, started the shot clock when the ball went through the basket. My partner and I noticed this after a few complaints from the crowd regarding differences between our ten second counts, and the time left on the 35 second shot clock. My partner noted that the shot clock was winding down when the ball was still out of bounds after a made basket. We got together during a timeout to discuss this, but since neither of us are NCAA officials, we decided that she probably knew the rule better than we did, so we let it go. She was wrong. We were wrong. Now I know the rule, and I will email the rule to my partner. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." By the way, after further review, the correct procedure is buried in the cursory handout we all receive noting the hybrid rule differences for these prep school games, so I can't blame my screwup on bad training.

[Butterfly182310]

Originally Posted by chseagle

#4 is the most realistic answer as player/team control has to be established for the shot clock...

NCAA Rule 2.11.5: "Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in..." Even if the throw-in touches a defensive player, the shot clock should be started simultaneously with the game clock. That same section also states that the shot clock is started upon "possession" in the case of an unsuccessful try for goal.

Many older shot clocks do not have the ability to "reset and hold" the timer after a scored goal until the ball is touched after the ensuing throw-in. In those cases, the operator needs to do a double reset. First reset, after the scored goal to keep a potential shot clock violation horn from sounding prior to the throw-in, and a second reset when the ball is legally touched inbounds after the throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Butterfly182310

NCAA Rule 2.11.5: "Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in..." Even if the throw-in touches a defensive player, the shot clock should be started simultaneously with the game clock. That same section also states that the shot clock is started upon "possession" in the case of an unsuccessful try for goal.

Many older shot clocks do not have the ability to "reset and hold" the timer after a scored goal until the ball is touched after the ensuing throw-in. In those cases, the operator needs to do a double reset. First reset, after the scored goal to keep a potential shot clock violation horn from sounding prior to the throw-in, and a second reset when the ball is legally touched inbounds after the throw-in.

I wonder if part of the difference has anything to do with the difference in team control during a throw-in.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I wonder if part of the difference has anything to do with the difference in team control during a throw-in.

Bingo. NFHS vs. NCAA definition of team control during a throwin.

Man, I hate hybrid rules. Either fish, or cut bait, but don't do both.

[chseagle]

I didn't say the right answer, but "the most realistic" as from watching NCAA games on TVs, the shot clock has been starting when ball is inbound & player has control.

There's going to almost always be differences between NFHS vs. NCAA.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bingo. NFHS vs. NCAA definition of team control during a throwin.

Man, I hate hybrid rules. Either fish, or cut bait, but don't do both.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By the way, after further review, the correct procedure is buried in the cursory handout we all receive noting the hybrid rule differences for these prep school games, so I can't blame my screwup on bad training.

chseagle might be horrified, but I'm astounded that two varsity officials would take a game and not bother to read the handout before working the game -- especially when they know there's a shot clock in the game and not in the "other" league they work.

I know you're so busy finding non-relevant, non-helpful images to post that you don't have time to read the handout, but I don't know what your partner's excuse was.

[APG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

chseagle might be horrified, but I'm astounded that two varsity officials would take a game and not bother to read the handout before working the game -- especially when they know there's a shot clock in the game and not in the "other" league they work.

I know you're so busy finding non-relevant, non-helpful images to post that you don't have time to read the handout, but I don't know what your partner's excuse was.

Ouch!

[RobbyinTN]

We don't use shot clocks here so I admit my knowledge is limited but it makes sense to me that after a basket is made the shot clock would start at the same time as the 10 second BC count

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

We don't use shot clocks here so I admit my knowledge is limited but it makes sense to me that after a basket is made the shot clock would start at the same time as the 10 second BC count

This is incorrect. In men's NCAA, the shot clock is started when the ball is legally touched by an inbounds player. The 10 second count shall begin when the team controls the ball inbounds.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

This is incorrect. In men's NCAA, the shot clock is started when the ball is legally touched by an inbounds player. The 10 second count shall begin when the team controls the ball inbounds.

OK, well as I said, we don't use them so just proves what makes sense isn't always correct

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

chseagle might be horrified, but I'm astounded that two varsity officials would take a game and not bother to read the handout before working the game -- especially when they know there's a shot clock in the game and not in the "other" league they work.

I know you're so busy finding non-relevant, non-helpful images to post that you don't have time to read the handout, but I don't know what your partner's excuse was.

Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm astounded that two varsity officials would take a game and not bother to read the handout before working the game -- especially when they know there's a shot clock in the game and not in the "other" league they work.

I go over this handout before every prep school game, a couple of times each season. We did read the handout, during pregame, and even again at halftime. The little tidbit regarding when to turn on the shot clock was "buried" under a list of possible shot clock violations (held ball, kicked ball, fifteen seconds, proper signal) so when we looked it over at halftime we couln't find it, since it wasn't a violation. It was "buried" so deep in the handout that I didn't finally find it until after I had posted the question on the Forum. This was after I read the handout before the game, during pregame, at halftime, and once again before I posted the question on the Forum. And, yes, we were probably wrong to assume that someone at the school (athletic director, site director, head coach, assistant coach, scorekeeper, timekeeper, shot clcok operator) would understand how to properly operate a shot clock, even though they use it in every single game, and most non-NCAA officials on our board only use these hybrid rules a couple of times each year. I wish I knew 100% of every single rule in the NFHS rulebook, I'm close, but after thirty years, I still don't. Throw in some hybrid NCAA/NFHS rules for a non-NCAA official, and it can get a little confusing. That doesn't mean that I'm not trying.