Questions from a coach

[ttt]

I'm a head coach who attempts to have some knowledge of the NFHS rulebook and have some, but limited knowledge about coverage areas. Two questions from a game yesterday. A referee put an offensive player at the line based on "continuation." The ref told me that it was "absolutly in the rulebook." I didn't think that that rule was in effect for high school. Looking for some clairity because I don't have my rulebook handy. Another question I have is about coverage area. My team was applying full court pressure, had a trap right on the baseline and the ref that was across half court (lead official?) made the call. I understand that a call should be made if it is seen but doesn't that make your partner look bad if he was close to the play? I umpire collegiate level baseball games in the spring and understand what calls should be made by each umpire and how it can hang your partner out to dry just looking to see how those in the basketball world see it.

[Adam]

1. Yes, the rule is pretty much the same at all levels for "continuation." If the player is fouled after he has begun his shooting motion, which can start as soon as he begins to "gather" the ball from a dribble, then he will be shooting free throws and/or credited with a made basket.
2. Coverage areas on presses are tricky. Was the trap close to the lead's sideline? Sometimes these traps present angle problems for the trail official and the lead needs to get it.

[referee99]

Possibly a poor choice of words from the official. If player had begun their habitual throwing motion, then they were in the act of shooting.

If new lead in press situation saw something that they knew their partner could not see, OR something that HAD TO BE CALLED, then I would have no problem if they came with that. But, they better get on that Palomino and close down hard!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ttt

I'm a head coach who attempts to have some knowledge of the NFHS rulebook and have some, but limited knowledge about coverage areas. Two questions from a game yesterday. A referee put an offensive player at the line based on "continuation." The ref told me that it was "absolutly in the rulebook." I didn't think that that rule was in effect for high school. Looking for some clairity because I don't have my rulebook handy.

There is "continuation" in the book. Although, it's not like the NBE's (aka NBA) version of continuation (which you may have some knowledge from watching NBE games).

When a player with the ball starts his habitual motion of trying for goal, and then is fouled, he is permitted to continue that action so long as it remains legal. So, ultimately, it is a judgment call, although I have found that most call is quite consistently. Note that the location of the player with the ball is of no significance. He could be "on the floor," or "airborne".

Originally Posted by ttt

Another question I have is about coverage area. My team was applying full court pressure, had a trap right on the baseline and the ref that was across half court (lead official?) made the call. I understand that a call should be made if it is seen but doesn't that make your partner look bad if he was close to the play? I umpire collegiate level baseball games in the spring and understand what calls should be made by each umpire and how it can hang your partner out to dry just looking to see how those in the basketball world see it.

Yes, that is the Lead official. I have found that baseball very much has a "don't fish in my pond" philosophy, but that comes from watching MLB games.

When making long distance calls, I often use the philosophy that if I see something that my partner missed, and it makes me say (in my head) "Oh my", then I pass.

But if I say "Oh my God!", then I very quickly and seriously think about making the call. Each official does have "primary" areas of responsibility, but ultimately both are responsible for the whole court.

In a press situation with the ball near the endline, a good Lead official will still be many feet away from the division line, so they actually wouldn't be that far from the play, and if the play is near the Lead's sideline, could actually be as close as the Trail official.

Usually LD calls are for more experienced officials, so it's reasonable to think that they got the call right.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by ttt

I'm a head coach who attempts to have some knowledge of the NFHS rulebook and have some, but limited knowledge about coverage areas. Two questions from a game yesterday. A referee put an offensive player at the line based on "continuation." The ref told me that it was "absolutly in the rulebook." I didn't think that that rule was in effect for high school. Looking for some clairity because I don't have my rulebook handy. Another question I have is about coverage area. My team was applying full court pressure, had a trap right on the baseline and the ref that was across half court (lead official?) made the call. I understand that a call should be made if it is seen but doesn't that make your partner look bad if he was close to the play? I umpire collegiate level baseball games in the spring and understand what calls should be made by each umpire and how it can hang your partner out to dry just looking to see how those in the basketball world see it.

1. Once the habitual "shooting motion" has started, the player is considered to be in the act of shooting. Therefore, if a player has picked up his dribble on a lay-up, he/she has begun the act of shooting. I am guessing that would explain the situation you describe. Other similar situations apply as well.

2. On the topic of coverage area, yes we do have primary areas. You did not indicate whether the game was being officiated with two or three officials, but I will venture a guess, here. In the case of a two-person game, a full-court situation presents some very challenging potential scenarios. First of all, we each have two lines to "cover" for the purpose of inbounds/out of bounds situations. Secondly, we are reasonsible for covering up to 4700 square feet (4200 square feet on a 50 feet x 84 feet floor) with 10 players running in somewhat random directions in the case of a fullcourt press. Since we are typically on opposite sides of the floor, it is entirely possible that an official on the OPPOSITE side of the court will have a better angle on a play -- particularly if the ball has been passed rather quickly up the floor -- than the "closer" official. While the trail official in this scenario will have primary coverage on the ball, the off official(s) is/are responsible for the rest of the court and that may include helping out with a backcourt violation or a foul if the primary official has been screened. It sounds like the officiating crew got the call right, in your case.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There is "continuation" in the book. Although, it's not like the NBE's (aka NBA) version of continuation (which you may have some knowledge from watching NBE games).

How is it different?

[ttt]

"1. Once the habitual "shooting motion" has started, the player is considered to be in the act of shooting. Therefore, if a player has picked up his dribble on a lay-up, he/she has begun the act of shooting. I am guessing that would explain the situation you describe. Other similar situations apply as well."

Thank you, that is how it happened. In the play that I speak of, it just seemed to be a bit more drawn out. The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed. It was just different in the fact that the official stated out loud "shooting two, continuation." The official did chat with me and as I stated earlier he said that continuation was absolutly in the book.

The second question regarding the coverage area. The foul, which didn't in my opinion have the "oh my god quality" did happen on the side opposite of the trail official, it was a trap of the first pass in bounds. I do understand angles from baseball and know that you don't have to be right on top of it as long as you have the correct angle, just seemed like the closest official should have had the call.

Thanks for all the responses

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How is it different?

In the NBA, you can travel after you're fouled and the basket will still count.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In the NBA, you can travel after you're fouled and the basket will still count.

Why the smiley?

Tthat's a true statement, especially so if you're a star.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ttt

The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed.

Once there's a fake, then the subsequent try shuoldn't count.

That assumes, of course, that the official sees what you see.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In the NBA, you can travel after you're fouled and the basket will still count.

Heck, it seems they can travel anytime in the NBA!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why the smiley?

What can I say? I like smileys.

Here's one for you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Ow.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ttt

Thank you, that is how it happened. In the play that I speak of, it just seemed to be a bit more drawn out. The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed. It was just different in the fact that the official stated out loud "shooting two, continuation." The official did chat with me and as I stated earlier he said that continuation was absolutely in the book.

I don't know which book your official meant, but the word 'continuation' does not appear in the NFHS basketball rule book.

The concept, however, applies: the ball remains live until the end of the try, and, as Bob mentions, a "ball fake" might have indicated that it was NOT a try. At that point, the ball is dead, and we enforce the penalty for the foul.

I think I would have to see your play to rule definitively on it. In general, however, many officials fail to award free throws on plays where they should because they don't know when a try begins.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't know which book your official meant, but the word 'continuation' does not appear in the NFHS basketball rule book.

The concept, however, applies: the ball remains live until the end of the try, and, as Bob mentions, a "ball fake" might have indicated that it was NOT a try. At that point, the ball is dead, and we enforce the penalty for the foul.

While a ball-fake would certainly end the try, the shooter would still get two free throws.