Questions from a coach

[ttt]

I'm a head coach who attempts to have some knowledge of the NFHS rulebook and have some, but limited knowledge about coverage areas. Two questions from a game yesterday. A referee put an offensive player at the line based on "continuation." The ref told me that it was "absolutly in the rulebook." I didn't think that that rule was in effect for high school. Looking for some clairity because I don't have my rulebook handy. Another question I have is about coverage area. My team was applying full court pressure, had a trap right on the baseline and the ref that was across half court (lead official?) made the call. I understand that a call should be made if it is seen but doesn't that make your partner look bad if he was close to the play? I umpire collegiate level baseball games in the spring and understand what calls should be made by each umpire and how it can hang your partner out to dry just looking to see how those in the basketball world see it.

[Adam]

1. Yes, the rule is pretty much the same at all levels for "continuation." If the player is fouled after he has begun his shooting motion, which can start as soon as he begins to "gather" the ball from a dribble, then he will be shooting free throws and/or credited with a made basket.
2. Coverage areas on presses are tricky. Was the trap close to the lead's sideline? Sometimes these traps present angle problems for the trail official and the lead needs to get it.

[referee99]

Possibly a poor choice of words from the official. If player had begun their habitual throwing motion, then they were in the act of shooting.

If new lead in press situation saw something that they knew their partner could not see, OR something that HAD TO BE CALLED, then I would have no problem if they came with that. But, they better get on that Palomino and close down hard!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ttt

I'm a head coach who attempts to have some knowledge of the NFHS rulebook and have some, but limited knowledge about coverage areas. Two questions from a game yesterday. A referee put an offensive player at the line based on "continuation." The ref told me that it was "absolutly in the rulebook." I didn't think that that rule was in effect for high school. Looking for some clairity because I don't have my rulebook handy.

There is "continuation" in the book. Although, it's not like the NBE's (aka NBA) version of continuation (which you may have some knowledge from watching NBE games).

When a player with the ball starts his habitual motion of trying for goal, and then is fouled, he is permitted to continue that action so long as it remains legal. So, ultimately, it is a judgment call, although I have found that most call is quite consistently. Note that the location of the player with the ball is of no significance. He could be "on the floor," or "airborne".

Originally Posted by ttt

Another question I have is about coverage area. My team was applying full court pressure, had a trap right on the baseline and the ref that was across half court (lead official?) made the call. I understand that a call should be made if it is seen but doesn't that make your partner look bad if he was close to the play? I umpire collegiate level baseball games in the spring and understand what calls should be made by each umpire and how it can hang your partner out to dry just looking to see how those in the basketball world see it.

Yes, that is the Lead official. I have found that baseball very much has a "don't fish in my pond" philosophy, but that comes from watching MLB games.

When making long distance calls, I often use the philosophy that if I see something that my partner missed, and it makes me say (in my head) "Oh my", then I pass.

But if I say "Oh my God!", then I very quickly and seriously think about making the call. Each official does have "primary" areas of responsibility, but ultimately both are responsible for the whole court.

In a press situation with the ball near the endline, a good Lead official will still be many feet away from the division line, so they actually wouldn't be that far from the play, and if the play is near the Lead's sideline, could actually be as close as the Trail official.

Usually LD calls are for more experienced officials, so it's reasonable to think that they got the call right.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

There is "continuation" in the book. Although, it's not like the NBE's (aka NBA) version of continuation (which you may have some knowledge from watching NBE games).

How is it different?

[ttt]

"1. Once the habitual "shooting motion" has started, the player is considered to be in the act of shooting. Therefore, if a player has picked up his dribble on a lay-up, he/she has begun the act of shooting. I am guessing that would explain the situation you describe. Other similar situations apply as well."

Thank you, that is how it happened. In the play that I speak of, it just seemed to be a bit more drawn out. The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed. It was just different in the fact that the official stated out loud "shooting two, continuation." The official did chat with me and as I stated earlier he said that continuation was absolutly in the book.

The second question regarding the coverage area. The foul, which didn't in my opinion have the "oh my god quality" did happen on the side opposite of the trail official, it was a trap of the first pass in bounds. I do understand angles from baseball and know that you don't have to be right on top of it as long as you have the correct angle, just seemed like the closest official should have had the call.

Thanks for all the responses

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ttt

The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed.

Once there's a fake, then the subsequent try shuoldn't count.

That assumes, of course, that the official sees what you see.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ttt

Thank you, that is how it happened. In the play that I speak of, it just seemed to be a bit more drawn out. The player started the motion for a lay-up, a reach occurred, then the shooter ball faked and the shot followed. It was just different in the fact that the official stated out loud "shooting two, continuation." The official did chat with me and as I stated earlier he said that continuation was absolutely in the book.

I don't know which book your official meant, but the word 'continuation' does not appear in the NFHS basketball rule book.

The concept, however, applies: the ball remains live until the end of the try, and, as Bob mentions, a "ball fake" might have indicated that it was NOT a try. At that point, the ball is dead, and we enforce the penalty for the foul.

I think I would have to see your play to rule definitively on it. In general, however, many officials fail to award free throws on plays where they should because they don't know when a try begins.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't know which book your official meant, but the word 'continuation' does not appear in the NFHS basketball rule book.

The concept, however, applies: the ball remains live until the end of the try, and, as Bob mentions, a "ball fake" might have indicated that it was NOT a try. At that point, the ball is dead, and we enforce the penalty for the foul.

While a ball-fake would certainly end the try, the shooter would still get two free throws.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't know which book your official meant, but the word 'continuation' does not appear in the NFHS basketball rule book.

The concept, however, applies: the ball remains live until the end of the try, and,

The NFHS term is continuous motion per rule 4-11. It is useful to use this terminology to distinguish from continuation as applied in the NBA. As other posters noted continuous motion begins with the habitual movement to start a try. It ends when the ball is in flight.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by ttt

I do understand angles from baseball and know that you don't have to be right on top of it as long as you have the correct angle, just seemed like the closest official should have had the call.

If you think the closest official should make the call, then your concerns over coverage responsibilities are at the expense of your players. Officials ref, you coach.
My guess is you just didnt like the call, whoever would have called it. Your "distance" complaint is the same as the one many have heard before.."Thats not your call" which is a weak complaint from a coach.

As an baseball official, you should (and probably do) know better.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by archangel

If you think the closest official should make the call, then your concerns over coverage responsibilities are at the expense of your players. Officials ref, you coach.
My guess is you just didnt like the call, whoever would have called it. Your "distance" complaint is the same as the one many have heard before.."Thats not your call" which is a weak complaint from a coach.

As an baseball official, you should (and probably do) know better.

I disagree, when one official appears to pass on a call and his partner whistles it from 50 feet away it's going to raise some questions. It could mean the calling official is ball-watching (bad), or it could simply be a play where the L knew the T had a bad angle (good).

Without being there, none of us really know; although we'll tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the officials on the game.

I will agree that if the only complaint the coach has is "that wasn't your call," it's just as credible as "that was a late call." Both complaints are over form rather than substance.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How is it different?

In the NBA, you can travel after you're fouled and the basket will still count.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

In the NBA, you can travel after you're fouled and the basket will still count.

Why the smiley?

Tthat's a true statement, especially so if you're a star.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why the smiley?

What can I say? I like smileys.

Here's one for you.