Possesion Arrow Error

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm just wondering why Cobra won't address the correlation between the original argument and the play I put out there about a Tech on the defense's coach during a fast break.

Because it has already been addressed by other posters. There are a couple situations where things which are normally fouls or violations but do not cause the ball to become dead. This play is one. Another the same type of play with someone on the defense running out of bounds to get a violation called. Defensive player sticking his arm though the throw in plane while the clock is running with the hopes of getting the violation called so the clock would stop.

There is no correlation between any of those plays and the play which is being discussed. Those are specific exemptions to when the ball becomes dead. I don't know why you don't understand that.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Grin.

You just can't make something like this up, folks.

And I ain't gonna argue with him either.

Unless you are directly quoting the rule book on when a ball becomes dead.

If I am so wrong can you please explain and cite rules to when the ball becomes dead in that situation?

If you aren't going to argue with me why are you quoting a post I made quite some time ago....a post that you already quoted and replied to? Seems like you want to argue.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I posit that everybody has become confused about who is talking about what.

Let me see if I can resolve this.

Cobra is saying that he can go back and call a foul from the start of the first half if he realizes it was a foul with 5 seconds left in the game. If so all subsequent action happened during a dead ball since the foul made the ball dead. No one agrees with him.

JR is saying that if the ball is erroneously inbounded then it has become live. Only Cobra disagrees on this point.

Camron is saying that if right after the ball is inbounded the V coach says something to merit a technical and he decides to call it that the ball is dead when the coach says it even if he drops his whistle and makes the call a second or two later. The foul made the ball dead and the whistle was just making it official. It's not clear to me if JR agrees or not.

He further envisions that in some early numbered post this is what was happening here. JR disagrees that the early numbered post describes that situation.

JR is saying that if the three is shot and then the official decides to call a technical that the ball was not dead when shot and the three counts. It's not clear to me if Camron agrees or not.

Does this capture everyone's viewpoint or is there more?

That is spot on....and what I was TRYING to say...but apparently so very poorly.


I'm not even sure JR is saying that.

If the official takes a 1, 2, maybe 3 seconds to process an unusual situation and finally decides, after the shot was released, to call the T for the act that was just before the shot, I assert that the shot was dead. Being momentarily frozen due to a bizarre situation doesn't mean that the time of occurrence is changed....the ball would be dead by rule.

I think JR is saying that if you've moved on, haven't called the T, go down to the other end of the court, you can't even go back and decide to call the T or wipe the shot.....with that I agree.


Can we just delete 90% of this thread now that we've all realized we were talking about a different set of assumptions?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Just yell for them to stop or something. The point is that sounding the whistle is not required by rule in order to call a foul.

I don't need to go to #6 to see who's right or wrong after reading this. This is without a doubt, the dumbest thing I have ever read on here.

From Page 33 of the 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual

2.4.2 FOULS

B. Point of the Foul: It is imperative that a definite procedure in officiating mechanics be used when a foul occurs. The following duties should be performed in the order listed by the calling official:

1. Inform the timer and alert the scorer by sounding the whistle with a single sharp blast while raising one hand, fist clenched, straight and high above the head.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1If the official takes a 1, 2, maybe 3 seconds to process an unusual situation and finally decides, after the shot was released, to call the T for the act that was just before the shot, I assert that the shot was dead. Being momentarily frozen due to a bizarre situation doesn't mean that the time of occurrence is changed....the ball would be dead by rule.

I think JR is saying that if you've moved on, haven't called the T, go down to the other end of the court, you can't even go back and decide to call the T or wipe the shot.....with that I agree.

Can we just delete 90% of this thread now that we've all realized we were talking about a different set of assumptions?

I agree. Aamof I think that I have already agreed with what Camron is saying above way back in my posts #32 and 38 of this thread.

I also agree that it's time to move on. We're beating a dead horse. I'm sureasheck not going to argue with Cobra any more about the ball being dead for a technical foul committed before the throw-in even though a whistle wasn't blown for that "T" until after a completed throw-in, a completed play and a made 3-point basket. Which would also mean that the throw-in and everything that happened after it never happened. That's just too bizarre for me. Then again though, that's just me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Because it has already been addressed by other posters. There are a couple situations where things which are normally fouls or violations but do not cause the ball to become dead. This play is one. Another the same type of play with someone on the defense running out of bounds to get a violation called. Defensive player sticking his arm though the throw in plane while the clock is running with the hopes of getting the violation called so the clock would stop.

There is no correlation between any of those plays and the play which is being discussed. Those are specific exemptions to when the ball becomes dead. I don't know why you don't understand that.
....

There is also a specific exemption for when you can wipe out points that were scored after a botched throw-in. The specific play being discussed doesn't meet that exemption. Your desired administration of the play is only valid when you start making up your own variables to change what actually occurred.

[just another ref]

Well, it happened to me tonight.....sorta. White deflects the pass out of bounds. Blue ball. Game is a BIG blowout, so it's fair to say we had all relaxed.
White 21 steps out of bounds. I hand him the ball. White 10 breaks to his basket, all alone. 21 lays the pass out in front of him, and I hit the whistle while the ball is in the air. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I give the ball back to blue without incident. Two things occur to me. I find it even harder to imagine giving a T in this situation for perceived deception. It took cooperation from both the blue team and me to pull off the trick. Even if I'm positive it was intentional, I would truly hate to call further attention to my own screw up.
Second, I think this is a prime candidate for a rule change. Let this be correctable until there is a change of possession.