Question and Advice

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it is the only example that they suggest this is the case, then yes. If the intent was different than there would be many more examples wouldn't you think? And in multiple cases there are only one example of any interpretation.

Peace

The only thing I get out of the case is that if one of the participants in the double foul was an airborne shooter, since his foul is part of a double foul that it is not a player control foul, so the ball does not become dead. Therefore the shot can still count. It then proceeds to spell out what the POI is and how to proceed from there.

That's it. That's the whole case. Nothing about obligation to stick with any call based on any signal given or not given.

Anything else anybody gets out of this case, they either read/heard it elsewhere, or made up their own interpretation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The only thing I get out of the case is that if one of the participants in the double foul was an airborne shooter, since his foul is part of a double foul that it is not a player control foul, so the ball does not become dead. Therefore the shot can still count. It then proceeds to spell out what the POI is and how to proceed from there.

That's it. That's the whole case. Nothing about obligation to stick with any call based on any signal given or not given.

Anything else anybody gets out of this case, they either read/heard it elsewhere, or made up their own interpretation.

Then follow the procedure you believe it is intended. I have never heard anyone suggest otherwise when they read it but based on your point of view now (that is happening a lot here lately for some reason). So you do what you think the interpretation means. But if you are in my game and I am one of the calling officials or Referee, we are going with what happened first, it is that simple. I think you are reading too much into these situations and I do not see that I am going to convince you otherwise. But in my games we are going with the first call if it is not a block/charge on the same play. I also do not think you answered my question either and if you did I am sorry. What are you going to do if you have a violation and foul called at the same time? Are you going to call both?

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What are you going to do if you have a violation and foul called at the same time? Are you going to call both?

Peace

I thought your question was rhetorical. There is a specific case play which says decide which happened first and go with that call.

Which reminds me:

Many years ago, when I first started, I had very limited rules knowledge, very little in the way of mechanics, and no training. Boys jr. high: A1 caught the ball down low and gave a head fake. 2 players bit on the fake and came flying at him. He recoiled to avoid the first and obviously traveled.
He then started up and was clobbered by the 2nd defender. My partner blew his whistle, I assumed to call the travel. I signaled nothing. He then stepped up to the table and started to report the foul. I stepped in. "No, no, before the shot," and made the travel signal. He nodded and walked away. If that happened now, I would keep my opinion to myself. I see this as a case of right mechanics, wrong call. Apparently some classify the double foul in this example this way, but I don't see anything right about it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I thought your question was rhetorical. There is a specific case play which says decide which happened first and go with that call.

Which reminds me:

Many years ago, when I first started, I had very limited rules knowledge, very little in the way of mechanics, and no training. Boys jr. high: A1 caught the ball down low and gave a head fake. 2 players bit on the fake and came flying at him. He recoiled to avoid the first and obviously traveled.
He then started up and was clobbered by the 2nd defender. My partner blew his whistle, I assumed to call the travel. I signaled nothing. He then stepped up to the table and started to report the foul. I stepped in. "No, no, before the shot," and made the travel signal. He nodded and walked away. If that happened now, I would keep my opinion to myself. I see this as a case of right mechanics, wrong call. Apparently some classify the double foul in this example this way, but I don't see anything right about it.

If that happen to me where I had a call, before a foul I would make that known immediately. The violation happened first, why would you not let everyone know that? And if I was the official that was calling the foul, I would want the right call to be made. This has nothing to do with what we are discussing when it comes to a "blarge" situation where there are signals. You have questioned this before, not sure why this is hard to understand when the committees for the NF and the NCAA Men’s have said this is how to handle the situation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If that happen to me where I had a call, before a foul I would make that known immediately. The violation happened first, why would you not let everyone know that? And if I was the official that was calling the foul, I would want the right call to be made.

Sounds perfect if both of you had sounded your whistles, especially if you came up with an open hand, and your partner came up with a fist. I believe that just another ref was saying that he didn't even sound his whistle in the example he gave, and although he didn't state it, the play may have even been outside of his primary coverage area.

Are you going to give your partner information on a call outside of your primary coverage area, when you don't even sound your whistle? We occasionally do this, that is, offer information, on tipped out of bounds calls, so I'm not sure that this would be appropriate, or not, on this specific play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds perfect if both of you had sounded your whistles, especially if you came up with an open hand, and your partner came up with a fist. I believe that just another ref was saying that he didn't even sound his whistle in the example he gave, and although he didn't state it, the play may have even been outside of his primary coverage area.

Are you going to give your partner information on a call outside of your primary coverage area, when you don't even sound your whistle? We occasionally do this, that is, offer information, on tipped out of bounds calls, so I'm not sure that this would be appropriate, or not, on this specific play?

Depends on the situation. I have given information before and will again. It does not mean that it is required or that it always happens.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Many years ago, when I first started, I had very limited rules knowledge, very little in the way of mechanics, and no training.

And this changed? When?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And this changed? When?

Who said it changed?

I do own a current rule book now. I had never seen a rule book my first few years, and the first one I had was 5 years old or more.

I hope to attend a camp of yours someday. First thing taught is how to post images?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But if you are in my game and I am one of the calling officials or Referee, we are going with what happened first, it is that simple.

What does being the referee have to do with this?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does being the referee have to do with this?

If the officials disagree, the Referee gets to break the tie. Not that I have ever seen that happen as most officials just go with the right call in these situations.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the officials disagree, the Referee gets to break the tie.

You wanna quote the rule on that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You wanna quote the rule on that?

I do not need to quote the rule on this because that is the expectation of the Referee in my area and the conferences I work. Referees handle situations when everyone cannot agree or irons out those issues or solves the disagreement. This is the common reason you hear the comment from assignors "I am looking for Referees, not U2s."

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not need to quote the rule on this because that is the expectation of the Referee in my area and the conferences I work.

And besides that, there is no such rule.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

"I am looking for Referees, not U2s."

Take one drink in the "Camp-Speak Drinking Game."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the officials disagree, the Referee gets to break the tie.

That's only true if the officials can't agree as to whether a goal shall count or not. It's not true for any other dissenting calls. NFHS rules 2-5-3 & 2-6 and case book plays 2.6SitA&B. You knew that.

Of course, in the case of a blarge it IS a tie. You knew that also.


Now you and JAR can carry on carrying on.......