Question and Advice

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I always try to pre-game this with people I have never worked with or have not worked with enough.

Around here we tend to give this to the primary coverage official unless there are other situations that can dictate who calls it, like who has called more fouls, who has a better angle, where did the ball come from or did something happen first?

If anything is learned this should be talked about every pre-game with people you do not work with normally or you have not worked with in a long time and you can avoid confusion. There are even many ways to handle this other than what I stated, but if you talk about it you can hash-out all the philosophies and perspectives.

Peace

Agreed....and we did pregame this. But because the defensive foul was rather "hard" and took both players to the court in an unorthodox manner to the floor, both of us closed to assure nothing unsporting happened.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

1. No, you are not obligated to call a double foul.
2. When you hit your whistle, once heard your partner's whistle (and/or saw his hand), you had "options."
A. You can defer the call to him,
B. You can get together and discuss what you each have,
C. He can come defer to the call to you,
D. See who gets to the table first (OK, kidding with that one).

Option A (or Option C) is the best option IF there is a 99.99% chance you both had the same call. In most situations, this will be the case. Option B is a much better option if there is doubt as to whether a violation happened before a foul OR if there is a possibility that your partner had a different foul call (perhaps two different defensive players involved OR a potential conflict between a player control foul and a defensive foul).

Arguably, the primary official in this case was somewhat gray -- since the lead had just arrived and you seemed to be in transition from center to trail. In these situations, I think that the best solution from a game management perspective is to go with the call that is the easier sell. In this case, by your own description, your partner's call was likely the best solution.

In this case, since YOU KNEW you likely had a different call (based on YOUR DESCRIPTION of the play) and you knew that the identification of the primary official may have been in doubt, you should have gone to him with what you had AND recommended that he take the call.

In lieu of that, at the very least, you should have gone to the coach and SOLD the fact that you had the SAME CALL your partner had.

If he had been a truly observant coach, he would have noticed your fist coming up (rather than an open hand) and would not have been arguing for a travel, but rather the call you actually had. In that case, you still would have been better off SELLING your partner's call (based on your description of the play).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

In lieu of that, at the very least, you should have gone to the coach and SOLD the fact that you had the SAME CALL your partner had.

I disagree. "Not just lie, but emphatically lie."

[btaylor64]

My opinion is that if it is a double whistle, it is dependent on who has the best angle. U have to know not only what u saw but see the play through your partner's position's eyes. If the play curled on you and you ended up with a closed look or a look that u believe is not as good as your partner's, then I believe you defer to him, but if you believe you had the best look of the whole entire crew then you owe it to them to trust what you saw, know that its the correct call and make it. I'm not big on having a bartered discussion on what should we do in regards to a def. Foul or off. Foul. Someone had the better look and saw the right thing, you just have to understand and realize who that was. There have plenty of times where I have deferred where, for example, an off. Player hooks a guy on a curl and I'm going offensive and my partner has a defensive foul and I give it up to him/her bc I know they had a good "see thru" look prior to the curl and I have also had the same play where I still call off. Foul bc the whistle came from the Lead After the curl had taken place and now the hooking of the defender makes it look like, in the lead's eyes, that the defender walks into the offensive player's space but it was the hook that made it look that way.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. "Not just lie, but emphatically lie."

lol...really? Are you serious or kidding? What if it shows up on film? I partially turned my body and my arm wasn't going up in a common foul motion. He knew I had something out of the ordinary. I didn't have to explain it luckily because I lucked out and spent the next 5 mins of play opposite of him and he dropped it by the time I got around to him.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

lol...really? Are you serious or kidding? What if it shows up on film? I partially turned my body and my arm wasn't going up in a common foul motion. He knew I had something out of the ordinary. I didn't have to explain it luckily because I lucked out and spent the next 5 mins of play opposite of him and he dropped it by the time I got around to him.

That's what I meant. He said to sell the fact that you had the same call as your partner, which would have been an emphatic lie. Hence I disagreed.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. "Not just lie, but emphatically lie."

Your choice, Snaqs. I suppose your option would have been to have told the coach that you had something different and that your over-zealous partner took the call from you and may end up costing your team the game, coach.

I will support my partner in this case -- especially based on the OP's description of what happened. Disagree if you wish.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I suppose your option would have been to have told the coach that you had something different and that your over-zealous partner took the call from you and may end up costing your team the game, coach. I will support my partner in this case.

“Coach, he was right there and had a great angle.”

“Coach, he had a great look, but if you have a specific question, you’ll have to ask him, he be over here in just a minute.”

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

“Coach, he was right there and had a great angle.”

“Coach, had a great look, but if you have a specific question, you’ll have to ask him, he be over here in just a minute.”

Yep and yep.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Your choice, Snaqs. I suppose your option would have been to have told the coach that you had something different and that your over-zealous partner took the call from you and may end up costing your team the game, coach.

I will support my partner in this case -- especially based on the OP's description of what happened. Disagree if you wish.

Really? You got that from what I wrote? How?

You don't have to lie in order to back your partner.

[Judtech]

Every pregame I am at the following, rather simplistic, sentences are uttered:
"Double whistles are good. Double signals are bad." (SOMETIMES it is uttered like Frankenstein, just to liven things up!)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by snaqwells

really? You got that from what i wrote? How?

You don't have to lie in order to back your partner.

+1

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really? You got that from what I wrote? How?

You don't have to lie in order to back your partner.

...and, I guess, based on what you wrote, you don't have to tell the whole truth, either, do you? Once again, you handle this situation however you would like. I will do the same. I will respectfully disagree with you and you with me.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

I have one question and one observation.

Question: Was the L still coming across from the "B" position when he made his foul call or was he already in the "C" position?

Observation: Whether he was still coming across or already in the "C" position, it is my opinion that since A44 had his back to the basket I think that this is the C's call because he has been watching the entire play.

MTD, Sr.