two man chop?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Somebody has to do them!

Mike Rowe
America's dirtiest jobs

Sports is not a necessity to life and yes someone can do them but many of the people that have a choice will not (I am by far the only one that chooses not to work them). There are reasons people go to college to have options in their career. I am glad I have options and do not have to do them at the varsity level.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Someone has to do them and I'm more than willing to pick up your discards.

Didn't NHL player Sean Avery make a similar comment a few years ago?

[BillyMac]

Splitting two checks three ways? I can't speak for the other local boards here in the Constitution State, but in my little corner of Connecticut we wouldn't have enough varsity officials to cover all busy night (Tuesday, Friday) games.

We're already having some trouble covering all these games with crews of two. Illnesses, injuries, and changing snow dates often present a major challenge to our assigning commissioner. Last season, after a major snowstorm, he actually sent us an email asking us to unblock a few dates, if possible, on our Arbiter schedule. We've asked leagues, and conferences, to move some of their games to other nights. We've also asked leagues, and conferences, to split their games by gender (one gender on Monday and Thursday, the other gender on Tuesday and Friday). Nobody wants to change. Especially that Friday night one gender at home, the other gender on the road, mentality.

And if we were to promote qualified subvarsity officials to varsity, that would leave us with a severe shortage of subvarsity officials to cover afternoon, and early evening, middle school, freshman, and junior varsity games.

I know that many of you non-Connecticuters work boy/girl varsity doubleheaders. For some reason, working two varsity games in one day is frowned upon here in Connecticut. The most common doubleheaders we see here are the middle school/junior varsity, or the freshman/junior varsity, doubleheaders, and those are few, and far between, only assigned when absolutely necessary, usually due to a shortage of officials available in the late afternoon, as well as a shortage of subvarsity officials in general, especially on those busy Friday afternoons, and evenings.

Recruiting basketball officials has become a major challenge here. $88.28 for varsity, and $57.25 for subvarsity, doesn't seem to cut it in a state where the median household income is around $54,000. Connecticut unemployment hovering around 9% hasn't seemed to help.

We will always be the "Land of Steady Habits". Unfortunately, it also appears that we may always, at least in the foreseeable future, be the "Land of the Two Person Game".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We've asked some leagues, and conferences, to move some of their games to other nights. We've also asked some leagues, and conferences, to split their games by gender (one gender on Monday and Thursday, the other gender on Tuesday and Friday). Nobody wants to change.

Every season I lose a few games because of the weather. What do these schools do the second they cancel? Decide to make the game up on the one Friday later in the season both of them are open.

Then, the AD seems annoyed when I tell him I'm booked on that, and every, Friday the rest of the season and then has to put out an APB and take any warm body they can get to work the game because nobody though that getting officials on a Friday night would be a problem.

What I'd like to say is, "That's what you get when you think of the officials last. Why didn't you call us (the scheduled crew) and go over a list of dates and see which one would work for ALL of us?"

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is why I think it is different. In three person the trail has a lot of coverage area on the same side of the Lead. You will be looking on the same side of the court and the ball will be passed to your side. In two person you are on the other side of the court and if you are watching the ball you will miss a lot in your area. The C can cover a lot of off-ball screening and movement. I guess you can do that, but if you miss a screen or something I would wonder why you were doing that. After all there is a reason that hardly anyone uses 2 Person at the varsity level. Not sure why tournaments are being so cheap to only use two. Glad that is not the case in the games I work in the same area and I would refuse but I digress.

Peace

You are writing this as if I am not doing anything other than mirroring a chop.

I guess I just don't understand why posters in this thread are being so dense. Let me summarize:

(1) My mirroring a chop in 2-person or 3-person *does not* take my attention off of anything else. I *am not* watching the ball. I AM NOT WATCHING THE BALL.

(2) I can either sense the touch on the court and chop or mirror a partner's chop without staring at that activity. I mean, I administer throw-ins all the time without staring directly at the basketball.

(3) I am going to get (or miss) that same illegal screen whether I'm mirroring a chop or not.

As far as not taking any 2-person games, I'll take any varsity game and work it however they want me to work it. If 2-person is good enough for those who are signing the checks and playing the game, it's good enough for me. We used to offer to bring a third and split 2 checks, but instead of convincing schools that it was worth it to pay for a third, I instead had ADs ask me if we would bring a third for free. Nope, sorry.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

We used to offer to bring a third and split 2 checks, but instead of convincing schools that it was worth it to pay for a third, I instead had ADs ask me if we would bring a third for free. Nope, sorry.

What's the difference in 3 splitting 2 checks and the third being free?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What's the difference in 3 splitting 2 checks and the third being free?

It's the same thing, just worded differently.

My point was that we offered to do it for a few years thinking that maybe it would encourage schools to figure out how to pay for 3 full-time. Instead, it just got schools to the point where they figured we'd bring 3-for-2 all the time. So (with a few exceptions) we've gone back to just bringing 2 officials to games.

10 years ago, football moved from 4 officials to 5 and no varsity game in the state now is played with 4 officials. We simply haven't been able to move basketball to 3 in the same manner. Personally, I think the state office could've been stronger in this regard (they still schedule 2-man for the first 2 rounds of the playoffs, for example), but they haven't been.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

(1) My mirroring a chop in 2-person or 3-person *does not* take my attention off of anything else. I *am not* watching the ball. I AM NOT WATCHING THE BALL.

Unfortunately, we can't say that about everyone. For that reason, the NCHSAA does not allow us to mirror the chop

10 years ago, football moved from 4 officials to 5 and no varsity game in the state now is played with 4 officials. We simply haven't been able to move basketball to 3 in the same manner. Personally, I think the state office could've been stronger in this regard (they still schedule 2-man for the first 2 rounds of the playoffs, for example), but they haven't been.

Agreed. The NCHSAA mandated three man for all varsity games in 1991. That's the only sure fire way to make all schools use three man.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Unfortunately, we can't say that about everyone. For that reason, the NCHSAA does not allow us to mirror the chop

I don't, either. It's not proper in WI, either. But the argument, I think, is specious. It's almost as bad as people that scream out "BALL WATCHER" whenever an officials so much as notices something outside his primary.

And I would be happy to take a small pay cut for varsity ball and split the difference with the schools. I would take $50 instead of $60 to work all 3-person provided the fees went back up within 3 years or so. It would cost a school $30 per game. Most schools have 22 home dates (11 boys and 11 girls), so it would cost $660 per season. Raise the admission by 50¢ a person and you'd easily cover that. Nobody's ever asked us about that, though.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's the same thing, just worded differently.

My point was that we offered to do it for a few years thinking that maybe it would encourage schools to figure out how to pay for 3 full-time. Instead, it just got schools to the point where they figured we'd bring 3-for-2 all the time. So (with a few exceptions) we've gone back to just bringing 2 officials to games.

10 years ago, football moved from 4 officials to 5 and no varsity game in the state now is played with 4 officials. We simply haven't been able to move basketball to 3 in the same manner. Personally, I think the state office could've been stronger in this regard (they still schedule 2-man for the first 2 rounds of the playoffs, for example), but they haven't been.

Too bad the state doesn't mandate the schools do x number of 3 person games.since the tournament uses them. It is not the same game from the officials standpoint and to expect them to all of a sudden adapt without practice, i.e. a certain number of 3 person games during the regular season, is a bit short sighted.

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Too bad the state doesn't mandate the schools do x number of 3 person games.since the tournament uses them. It is not the same game from the officials standpoint and to expect them to all of a sudden adapt without practice, i.e. a certain number of 3 person games during the regular season, is a bit short sighted.

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

It's a process that has had enormous growing pains for just that reason. Coaches and assignors complain because it seems each crew (that isn't a regular crew) has one "weak" official, so why don't we just work 2-man? And I've never seen a single subvarsity game played with 3 officials here, either.

So, it's trial and learning by fire. People working games that count 3-person when they simply don't have the experience to handle those games properly. And then everyone, including those officials, wish out loud that we'd just work 2-man and be done with it.

If the state would mandate 3 and suggest a pay cut for 3 years from $60 to $50 it would take 3-4 years for everyone to be proficient (and some officials may never catch on, but those guys weren't working a good 2-man game, either) and coaches and sportswriters would have to hold their tongues and let the process happen. But the state office hasn't shown a willingness to advocate three person strongly enough. It's frustrating.

In the meantime, all of the good officials' education being taught now in clinics and camps is 3-person. There are no good intermediate-to-advanced camps being taught 3-person, so officials are pretty much on their own in developing skills on the 2-person side. That shouldn't be developed anymore anyway, but I digress.....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

That's very odd to me. What does the school size have to do with whether you mandate 3 man or 2 man?

Surely it's not based on the gate. I routinely work 1A and 2A schools that have a larger attendance than the bigger 4A schools. Many small communities provde better support for their teams.

With the exception of one conference, all of our JV games use 3 man. That's been the case for alonst 10 years.

The conference where we work 2 man plays JVG, JVB, VG, and VB all at the same site beginning at 4pm. The JV games have a running clock, except for the last two mintues of each half. That was the compromise we negotiated to go to 2 man; shorter games and a shorter night for everyone.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

You are writing this as if I am not doing anything other than mirroring a chop.

I guess I just don't understand why posters in this thread are being so dense. Let me summarize:

(1) My mirroring a chop in 2-person or 3-person *does not* take my attention off of anything else. I *am not* watching the ball. I AM NOT WATCHING THE BALL.

(2) I can either sense the touch on the court and chop or mirror a partner's chop without staring at that activity. I mean, I administer throw-ins all the time without staring directly at the basketball.

(3) I am going to get (or miss) that same illegal screen whether I'm mirroring a chop or not.

As far as not taking any 2-person games, I'll take any varsity game and work it however they want me to work it. If 2-person is good enough for those who are signing the checks and playing the game, it's good enough for me. We used to offer to bring a third and split 2 checks, but instead of convincing schools that it was worth it to pay for a third, I instead had ADs ask me if we would bring a third for free. Nope, sorry.

With the commonality of motion offenses, off-ball screens and other rough play I would rather leave the trail doing other things. If you choose to do it that is up to you, but I see why it is not done. Again by practice you are on the other side of the court and unless the ball is thrown to your side of the court I could see you missing the correct chop if you are watching other things. The Trail in a 3 Person I guess could do the same but they have another official that is watching stuff on the other side of the court and the ball is likely to be thrown to their side. This is why I do not advocate this and my state at this point does not advocate it as well.

Peace