two man chop?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's the same thing, just worded differently.

My point was that we offered to do it for a few years thinking that maybe it would encourage schools to figure out how to pay for 3 full-time. Instead, it just got schools to the point where they figured we'd bring 3-for-2 all the time. So (with a few exceptions) we've gone back to just bringing 2 officials to games.

10 years ago, football moved from 4 officials to 5 and no varsity game in the state now is played with 4 officials. We simply haven't been able to move basketball to 3 in the same manner. Personally, I think the state office could've been stronger in this regard (they still schedule 2-man for the first 2 rounds of the playoffs, for example), but they haven't been.

Too bad the state doesn't mandate the schools do x number of 3 person games.since the tournament uses them. It is not the same game from the officials standpoint and to expect them to all of a sudden adapt without practice, i.e. a certain number of 3 person games during the regular season, is a bit short sighted.

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Too bad the state doesn't mandate the schools do x number of 3 person games.since the tournament uses them. It is not the same game from the officials standpoint and to expect them to all of a sudden adapt without practice, i.e. a certain number of 3 person games during the regular season, is a bit short sighted.

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

It's a process that has had enormous growing pains for just that reason. Coaches and assignors complain because it seems each crew (that isn't a regular crew) has one "weak" official, so why don't we just work 2-man? And I've never seen a single subvarsity game played with 3 officials here, either.

So, it's trial and learning by fire. People working games that count 3-person when they simply don't have the experience to handle those games properly. And then everyone, including those officials, wish out loud that we'd just work 2-man and be done with it.

If the state would mandate 3 and suggest a pay cut for 3 years from $60 to $50 it would take 3-4 years for everyone to be proficient (and some officials may never catch on, but those guys weren't working a good 2-man game, either) and coaches and sportswriters would have to hold their tongues and let the process happen. But the state office hasn't shown a willingness to advocate three person strongly enough. It's frustrating.

In the meantime, all of the good officials' education being taught now in clinics and camps is 3-person. There are no good intermediate-to-advanced camps being taught 3-person, so officials are pretty much on their own in developing skills on the 2-person side. That shouldn't be developed anymore anyway, but I digress.....

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's a process that has had enormous growing pains for just that reason. Coaches and assignors complain because it seems each crew (that isn't a regular crew) has one "weak" official, so why don't we just work 2-man? And I've never seen a single subvarsity game played with 3 officials here, either.

So, it's trial and learning by fire. People working games that count 3-person when they simply don't have the experience to handle those games properly. And then everyone, including those officials, wish out loud that we'd just work 2-man and be done with it.

If the state would mandate 3 and suggest a pay cut for 3 years from $60 to $50 it would take 3-4 years for everyone to be proficient (and some officials may never catch on, but those guys weren't working a good 2-man game, either) and coaches and sportswriters would have to hold their tongues and let the process happen. But the state office hasn't shown a willingness to advocate three person strongly enough. It's frustrating.

In the meantime, all of the good officials' education being taught now in clinics and camps is 3-person. There are no good intermediate-to-advanced camps being taught 3-person, so officials are pretty much on their own in developing skills on the 2-person side. That shouldn't be developed anymore anyway, but I digress.....

That is too bad. Of course, some are weak officials, and some are learning officials. But as you said, the weak ones are weak in 2 person crews anyway.
One of the ways to develop a 3 crew official is to use Frosh DHs as a training ground IMO. A veteran can partner with two learning officials and split the fees 3 ways. That would also bring better officiating to frosh games from time to time and doing a double with 3 would not be as taxing as a double with two, of course. So, perhaps the smaller game fee would be the price of training and developing. All this is moot, though, if your state doesn't think it is important.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

That is too bad. Of course, some are weak officials, and some are learning officials. But as you said, the weak ones are weak in 2 person crews anyway.
One of the ways to develop a 3 crew official is to use Frosh DHs as a training ground IMO. A veteran can partner with two learning officials and split the fees 3 ways. That would also bring better officiating to frosh games from time to time and doing a double with 3 would not be as taxing as a double with two, of course. So, perhaps the smaller game fee would be the price of training and developing. All this is moot, though, if your state doesn't think it is important.

What's worse is that the officials don't want to split the $160 (a FR DH pays $80 per official here) and many vets wouldn't want to take a night off a varsity game to work a FR DH (quite frankly, I don't, unless it's some kind of organized program).

Matter of fact, some officials prefer working the FR DH because it pays $20 more than working one varsity game. Those are the people you don't really want to see in the varsity games anyway.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

What's worse is that the officials don't want to split the $160 (a FR DH pays $80 per official here) and many vets wouldn't want to take a night off a varsity game to work a FR DH (quite frankly, I don't, unless it's some kind of organized program).

Matter of fact, some officials prefer working the FR DH because it pays $20 more than working one varsity game. Those are the people you don't really want to see in the varsity games anyway.

The guys in it for the money are not very often your top tier officials. Giving back to the association by working one or two FR DHs a season to help train isn't a bad thing, but I can see that unless it was a mentor type program and came as an association directive, that few would do it. But, everybody got help along the way, and the best help I ever had was actually working with folks with experience who were NOT in it for the money.

[bob jenkins]

We convinced one conference that on one night the prelim games (it's the Soph game, here) across the entire conference would be three person. We put officials on the game who are nearly ready to move to Varsity on the games and assign the V officials to get to the games from the beginning to observe / provide feedback. The three officials split the two fees.

This gives the officials some game experience in three person when they get to Varsity and doesn't cost the schools any more, or put anyone at a disadvantage (since it's done at all schools on that night).

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We convinced one conference that on one night the prelim games (it's the Soph game, here) across the entire conference would be three person. We put officials on the game who are nearly ready to move to Varsity on the games and assign the V officials to get to the games from the beginning to observe / provide feedback. The three officials split the two fees.

This gives the officials some game experience in three person when they get to Varsity and doesn't cost the schools any more, or put anyone at a disadvantage (since it's done at all schools on that night).

Great idea.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

VT went that route, and the size of the school dictates the number of games they must have with 3. Officials must also have 10 3 person games during the season to qualify to do playoff games. FL has that as well, though I haven't figured out the requisite number of 3 person games each school must have.

That's very odd to me. What does the school size have to do with whether you mandate 3 man or 2 man?

Surely it's not based on the gate. I routinely work 1A and 2A schools that have a larger attendance than the bigger 4A schools. Many small communities provde better support for their teams.

With the exception of one conference, all of our JV games use 3 man. That's been the case for alonst 10 years.

The conference where we work 2 man plays JVG, JVB, VG, and VB all at the same site beginning at 4pm. The JV games have a running clock, except for the last two mintues of each half. That was the compromise we negotiated to go to 2 man; shorter games and a shorter night for everyone.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Many small communities proved better support for their teams.

Same here in my little corner of Connecticut. We have one conference of very small schools that always have big crowds on a Friday nights. Of course there's absolutely nothing else to do in these very small towns on a Friday night. It's either watch a high school basketball game, or mosey on downtown and watch the one traffic light change colors.

Some of our guys don't like doing these games, a lot of below the rim stuff, but I love them. I'm a big believer that games like these are the most important games being played that night for these kids, fans, and coaches, and I make sure that I officiate the game keeping that in mind, through my effort, and my attitude.

[Terrapins Fan]

Billy, I doubt that your schools are smaller than ours. Most of our high schools have less than 700 kids total 9-12. Many we referee for about about 200- 300 kids. We have 11 high schools and 13 middle schools.

All the high school games are 3 person.

Everything else is 2 person.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I doubt that your schools are smaller than ours. Most of our high schools have less than 700 kids total 9-12. Many we referee for about about 200- 300 kids. We have 11 high schools and 13 middle schools.

My local board covers seventy high schools. Only two public high schools in my local area have fewer than three hundred students, the smallest having 218, and 236. On the other end of the spectrum we have a twenty-one public high schools in my local area with over one thousand students, the largest having 2568 students.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's very odd to me. What does the school size have to do with whether you mandate 3 man or 2 man?

Surely it's not based on the gate. I routinely work 1A and 2A schools that have a larger attendance than the bigger 4A schools. Many small communities provde better support for their teams.

With the exception of one conference, all of our JV games use 3 man. That's been the case for alonst 10 years.

The conference where we work 2 man plays JVG, JVB, VG, and VB all at the same site beginning at 4pm. The JV games have a running clock, except for the last two mintues of each half. That was the compromise we negotiated to go to 2 man; shorter games and a shorter night for everyone.

Let me expand: Largest schools [with biggest gates] are expected to have 3 crews for 4 GV & 4 BV home games. Next biggest, 3 of each, and so forth. Largest schools also have larger budgets AND there are not many private schools in VT, which here in FL seem to be in the lowest 3 of 6 classifications. [I presume that there may be more private schools in NC that populate some of the smaller classifications, hence some larger gates.]

Also, in VT, coach buses are used by many larger schools and the large schools tend to not have to travel as far for many of their games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's very odd to me. What does the school size have to do with whether you mandate 3 man or 2 man?

I could make an argument that bigger schools likely have better athletes and their games likely need 3 officials more than smaller schools. Sure, there are exceptions that prove the rule.

But from a money standpoint, it makes little sense, I agree.

From a completely non-PC standpoint, I'd be thrilled to go 3-person for all boys games and none of the girls games.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

[I presume that there may be more private schools in NC that populate some of the smaller classifications, hence some larger gates.]

Nope. There are only 2 private schools among the almost 400 schools that comprise the NCHSAA.

Athletic budgets are based solely on individual school district funding. Size really doesn't have much to do with it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same here in my little corner of Connecticut. We have one conference of very small schools that always have big crowds on a Friday nights. Of course there's absolutely nothing else to do in these very small towns on a Friday night. It's either watch a high school basketball game, or mosey on downtown and watch the one traffic light change colors.

Some of our guys don't like doing these games, a lot of below the rim stuff, but I love them. I'm a big believer that games like these are the most important games being played that night for these kids, fans, and coaches, and I make sure that I officiate the game keeping that in mind, through my effort, and my attitude.

Keep me in town on Tuesdays, in town being where the 4A schools are, and send me out of town where the gyms are packed on Friday night.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

From a completely non-PC standpoint, I'd be thrilled to go 3-person for all boys games and none of the girls games.

I don't have any desire to do any 2 man games. No thank you.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I don't have any desire to do any 2 man games. No thank you.

I enjoy it from time to tim, actually. If it's an easy game to work where I can get into a good run up and down the court, there's nothing like it.

Of course, it's hard to predict when a game's going to be easy to work.