Jump ball v. travel

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While "basketball sense" can be useful at times, there are also times where what would be the apparent "right" thing to do goes directly against the rules. (Umm, "blarge", anyone?) That's why I posed the initial (albeit far-fetched) question - how far do you go in determining a held ball that does not include the defender's hand(s)? Especially since 4.25.2 does use the word hands.

It is important to remember that the rules are written for typical situations and some not so typical situations but are not necessarily intended to exhaustively cover all possible situations. The principles and philosophies behind the existing rules sometimes need to be used to cover some less common situations such as this despite the fact that the rule explicitly covers only one scenario (hands).

If B1 is caps the ball, even with a forearm, that fits the spirit and intent of this rule even if the rule only mentions hands.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe this example is a little more believeable: A1 goes up for a shot, while B1 also jumps up to defend/block the shot. A1 does a double-clutch and tries to go under B1's arms, but ends up pinning the ball against B1's side, and comes down with the ball. Somehow B1's hands or arms never touch the ball. (B1 was trying to stay "straight up" and not foul.) Would you still consider this a blocked shot, and thus a held ball?

For the record, I do not have an answer, just looking for opinions. In the OP, I too would rule a held ball, as a player can hold the ball without using their hands. But the wording of the case play has me thinking...yea, I know, sometimes a dangerous thing...

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd likely rule a held ball here, too, as it seems to fit the intent of the rule.

I'm likely to call that a travel.

When A1 gets the ball stuck between a couple of bodies while driving through the lane, we don't usually consider that a held ball...it usually ends in a travel or a fumble. I'm inclined to call similarly when A1 is attempting a shot and the same thing occurs.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While "basketball sense" can be useful at times, there are also times where what would be the apparent "right" thing to do goes directly against the rules. (Umm, "blarge", anyone?) That's why I posed the initial (albeit far-fetched) question - how far do you go in determining a held ball that does not include the defender's hand(s)? Especially since 4.25.2 does use the word hands.

Maybe this example is a little more believeable: A1 goes up for a shot, while B1 also jumps up to defend/block the shot. A1 does a double-clutch and tries to go under B1's arms, but ends up pinning the ball against B1's side, and comes down with the ball. Somehow B1's hands or arms never touch the ball. (B1 was trying to stay "straight up" and not foul.) Would you still consider this a blocked shot, and thus a held ball?

For the record, I do not have an answer, just looking for opinions. In the OP, I too would rule a held ball, as a player can hold the ball without using their hands. But the wording of the case play has me thinking...yea, I know, sometimes a dangerous thing...

Go with intent. in your scenario here I would NOT have a held ball as it is clearly the offensive players action that caused him to not release the ball. in Fact i would go so far to say that in the case of verticality the contact better happen in the upper areas (like the arms region) im not going to punish good defense by NOT calling a travel when it is the right call to make.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'm likely to call that a travel.

When A1 gets the ball stuck between a couple of bodies while driving through the lane, we don't usually consider that a held ball...it usually ends in a travel or a fumble. I'm inclined to call similarly when A1 is attempting a shot and the same thing occurs.

But the rule is different on a shot than otherwise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

in Fact i would go so far to say that in the case of verticality the contact better happen in the upper areas (like the arms region) im not going to punish good defense by NOT calling a travel when it is the right call to make.

1. I'm not sure what verticality has to do with this.
2. Do you really think my goal is to punish the defense by making the wrong call? That's what you're insinuating by that last portion. Either that or it's a meaningless statement.

I'm not conceding that travel is the right call. A1 is trying to shoot, and B1 is purposefully disturbing that shot and forcing A1 to adjust. That's completely different than B1 with his back to A1, and it seems to me it fits the intent. I'm still not certain.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While "basketball sense" can be useful at times, there are also times where what would be the apparent "right" thing to do goes directly against the rules. (Umm, "blarge", anyone?) That's why I posed the initial (albeit far-fetched) question - how far do you go in determining a held ball that does not include the defender's hand(s)? Especially since 4.25.2 does use the word hands.

Maybe this example is a little more believeable: A1 goes up for a shot, while B1 also jumps up to defend/block the shot. A1 does a double-clutch and tries to go under B1's arms, but ends up pinning the ball against B1's side, and comes down with the ball. Somehow B1's hands or arms never touch the ball. (B1 was trying to stay "straight up" and not foul.) Would you still consider this a blocked shot, and thus a held ball?

For the record, I do not have an answer, just looking for opinions. In the OP, I too would rule a held ball, as a player can hold the ball without using their hands. But the wording of the case play has me thinking...yea, I know, sometimes a dangerous thing...

In this particular play, I'd call a travel. A doesn't get to pin the ball against B to buy a held ball.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by justacoach

As it is (none too clearly) written, I think B1 just got a steal and may dribble, shoot or pass but I sense something amiss...
did you mean to type A1 instead of the final B1 in your sitch?
If that is the case, Held ball!

Yes....now its fixed