Messy situation

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

...have you told the ol' boy you officiated with this?

Yes. Sent him a text this morning and admitted I was wrong and told him I think I'm still right about the rest of it.

I'm of the thinking that there is no rule that says we can't rescind a T, so if we need to do it, then do it.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by rwest

What rule reference that states we can't fix this after the first free throw?

Do you see Ts on the list of correctable errors, because I don't.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Do you see Ts on the list of correctable errors, because I don't.

Correctable errors are not the only things that can be corrected. If you report the wrong number on a foul, then realize it later, that can be corrected any time. In this case, I reported a technical foul when there was none. Correct that. Now the free throws were unwarranted. Wipe them out and let's move on.

[Judtech]

If we are to treat a Technical foul as just "another foul" as is preached at several clinics, why would we recind it? Would we recind a "regular" foul b/c you missed it? While it obviously has NEVER happened to me, I have hearrd of officials who have blown a whistle and called a foul that they wish they would not have for various reasons, anticipation, brain fart etc. Do we then recind those calls? What if the "Jumbotron" clearly shows there was no foul, do we take our call back or just eat it and move on?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Do you see Ts on the list of correctable errors, because I don't.

You are assuming that I am using 2.10 to fix this. I'm not. I agree it's not a correctable error. However, the T should not have been assessed. In this case the official did set aside a rule just as when we award free throws based on faulty information from the table. The free throws were therefore unmerited although not correctable by 2.10. I say use 2.3 to fix this because this is not directly covered by rule.

Nowhere does the rule book say a T can't be rescinded in this case. The only reference to not rescinding a T is DURING a correctable error, if it involves unmerited free throws or free throws taken by the wrong shooter or at the wrong goal. This does not apply in this case. The T wasn't during a free throw but errorneously caused the free throws to be taken in the first place.

Please site the rule that says a T can't be rescinded.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Judtech

If we are to treat a Technical foul as just "another foul" as is preached at several clinics, why would we recind it? Would we recind a "regular" foul b/c you missed it? While it obviously has NEVER happened to me, I have hearrd of officials who have blown a whistle and called a foul that they wish they would not have for various reasons, anticipation, brain fart etc. Do we then recind those calls? What if the "Jumbotron" clearly shows there was no foul, do we take our call back or just eat it and move on?

I too have never done this , but I've heard of officials whistling a foul but then realizing its not a foul and converting it to an inadvertent whistle. Of course, I've never done that either! . The fact is this is not directly covered by any rule or case play that I know of. If there is an official interp I don't know about it and even if there is there is a precedent for ignoring official interps on this forum. Notice the smiley guys!

Use rule 2.3 to fix this and move on.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rwest

Use rule 2.3 to fix this and move on.

And, failing that, "cuz I said so" is always good.

So, it looks like we're all in agreement, then.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

I too have never done this , but I've heard of officials whistling a foul but then realizing its not a foul and converting it to an inadvertent whistle. Of course, I've never done that either! . The fact is this is not directly covered by any rule or case play that I know of. If there is an official interp I don't know about it and even if there is there is a precedent for ignoring official interps on this forum. Notice the smiley guys!

Use rule 2.3 to fix this and move on.

Do you agree that there is ever a point that it becomes too late to fix it? If so, when? There has to be some point where it becomes too late.

There are other cases of erroneously called infractions that establish when it is too late to correct the call. For example, a throwin to the wrong team can not be corrected once the ball was thrown in. If you call a travel by mistake and put the ball back in play (throw in ends), it is too late.

You're never going to get the rule/case book to detail every possibility. You have to use the rules/cases you've got to derive the answer. 2.3 is not an option when we've got cases that already cover when it is too late to correct an incorrectly called infraction.

Basically, once "recordable" game action has occurred, you can only correct bookkeeping errors (until the score is approved) or correctable errors (within their defined limits). By recordable game action, I'm referring to the clock starting or a FT being taken. So, once you administer the FT, you've already moved on and there is nothing you can do.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

2.3 is not an option when we've got cases that already cover when it is too late to correct an incorrectly called infraction.

Is there a case which deals with anything close to this?

Official calls improper technical due to erroneous information from the scorer.

As you say, everything cannot be covered in the books. Sometimes you just have to do something because it makes sense.
I would probably rescind the T at any time this information was brought to my attention. The free throws are covered by rule.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is there a case which deals with anything close to this?

Official calls improper technical due to erroneous information from the scorer.

As you say, everything cannot be covered in the books. Sometimes you just have to do something because it makes sense.
I would probably rescind the T at any time this information was brought to my attention. The free throws are covered by rule.

We have the general throwin case where the wrong team is given the ball...it is too late once the ball is touched inbounds (clock starts).

I think we also have a case where an AP situation is administered by giving the wrong team the ball...either due to erroneous info from the scorer or the officials just not heeding the information provided. Once the ball is inbounds, it is too late.

Is there ANY case that covers removing a reported foul from the book? Or for that matter, is there ANY case that involves canceling an infraction (violation or foul) after it has called and penalized? No, there is the opposite....once the ball is in play, it is too late.

So, we have 1-2 cases that declare it too late to fix a mistake once the ball is in play and we have 0 that support canceling an infraction after the ball has been put in play.

I'd say the onus is upon those that say you can, by rule, wipe a reported and penalized foul away to provide something other than 2.3 to support that claim.

I'm aware that until it is penalized, you can declare an inadvertent whistle...but once you administer the penalty (i.e., a throw-in completed or free throw taken, there is no going back).

If I find out after the fact that I'm improperly called a T that resulted in an indirect on the coach, I would be inclined to reinstate his coaching box, but not wipe the T.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by rwest

You are assuming that I am using 2.10 to fix this. I'm not. I agree it's not a correctable error. However, the T should not have been assessed. In this case the official did set aside a rule just as when we award free throws based on faulty information from the table. The free throws were therefore unmerited although not correctable by 2.10. I say use 2.3 to fix this because this is not directly covered by rule.

Nowhere does the rule book say a T can't be rescinded in this case. The only reference to not rescinding a T is DURING a correctable error, if it involves unmerited free throws or free throws taken by the wrong shooter or at the wrong goal. This does not apply in this case. The T wasn't during a free throw but errorneously caused the free throws to be taken in the first place.

Please site the rule that says a T can't be rescinded.

Your only choice of rules to go back and correct prior activity is 2-10. 2-10 provides a finite list of correctable errors. Assessing fouls is not on that list. You cannot use 2-3 as your authority because correcting errors is a point specifically covered in the rules.

Beyond that, by your own admission, you can't wave off a T that occurred when there was a correctable error. So why then would it be acceptable to wave it off when there wasn't a correctable error? You defeated your own argument there.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We have the general throwin case where the wrong team is given the ball...it is too late once the ball is touched inbounds (clock starts).

I think we also have a case where an AP situation is administered by giving the wrong team the ball...either due to erroneous info from the scorer or the officials just not heeding the information provided. Once the ball is inbounds, it is too late.

Is there ANY case that covers removing a reported foul from the book? Or for that matter, is there ANY case that involves canceling an infraction (violation or foul) after it has called and penalized? No, there is the opposite....once the ball is in play, it is too late.

So, we have 1-2 cases that declare it too late to fix a mistake once the ball is in play and we have 0 that support canceling an infraction after the ball has been put in play.

I'd say the onus is upon those that say you can, by rule, wipe a reported and penalized foul away to provide something other than 2.3 to support that claim.

I'm aware that until it is penalized, you can declare an inadvertent whistle...but once you administer the penalty (i.e., a throw-in completed or free throw taken, there is no going back).

If I find out after the fact that I'm improperly called a T that resulted in an indirect on the coach, I would be inclined to reinstate his coaching box, but not wipe the T.

Nothing you have quoted here is applicable. This is not a throw-in. Those cases don't apply. You can't take one rule that covers one scenario and then use it in a different scenario. We have rule 2.3 cover scenarios such as this. And if you can't wipe out the T you can't restore the coaching box.

Do you have a rule that specifically covers this exact scenario?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Your only choice of rules to go back and correct prior activity is 2-10. 2-10 provides a finite list of correctable errors. Assessing fouls is not on that list. You cannot use 2-3 as your authority because correcting errors is a point specifically covered in the rules.

Beyond that, by your own admission, you can't wave off a T that occurred when there was a correctable error. So why then would it be acceptable to wave it off when there wasn't a correctable error? You defeated your own argument there.

The only time the rule book says you can't wipe out a T is during a correctable error. Period! End of story! This is not a correctable error by rule and therefore those examples don't apply.

Quote me the rule that says you can't wipe out a T that was wrongfully administered? There is nothing that covers this exact scenario. The use of rule 2.3 is justified.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by rwest

The only time the rule book says you can't wipe out a T is during a correctable error. Period! End of story! This is not a correctable error by rule and therefore those examples don't apply.

Quote me the rule that says you can't wipe out a T that was wrongfully administered? There is nothing that covers this exact scenario. The use of rule 2.3 is justified.

Wow. Exactly. It's not a correctable error so it can't be corrected. Glad you agree with me.

You can't use 2-3 when something is covered by another rule. Which errors can be corrected is covered by 2-10.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Wow. Exactly. It's not a correctable error so it can't be corrected. Glad you agree with me.

You can't use 2-3 when something is covered by another rule. Which errors can be corrected is covered by 2-10.

No you are agreeing with me. You agree this is not a correctable error therefore rule 2.10 doesn't apply. Yet you have failed to show me the rule that says categorically that a T can't be wiped out. Since this situation doesn't fit the description of rule 2.10 we can't use it but there are other rules other than 2.10. This scenario is not covered by any rule, therefore, 2.3 is applicable.

What would happen if you called the T and where lining up to shoot the free throws but before the first three throw is taken the table buzzes you over? They found the original roster handed in by the coach. It had the player on the roster and the scorer just failed to copy it down.

What are you going to do?