Messy situation

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I seem to remember some constipation...I mean consternation surrounding this scenario on this forum.

It's part of the case play in 3.2.2 that bob jenkins posted in this thread. Snaqs is right.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True, let me change it.

A15 reports to the table and the table informs the officials before play begins. Coach then has the opportunity to withdraw A15 prior to participation (perhaps his team has the ball and he desires to add the player to the book when it won't cost him a possession.)

So if A15 reports but has not been added yet, as long as the ball doesn't become live the coach does not have to add him yet and can sit him back down and then either add him later or keep him on the bench? Do I have that right?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How about after the first FT?

Correctable error? Unmerited free throw?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It's part of the case play in 3.2.2 that bob jenkins posted in this thread. Snaqs is right.

Yep, the question is whether or not any statistical input from A15 (scoring or fouls) changes this.

Originally Posted by zm1283

So if A15 reports but has not been added yet, as long as the ball doesn't become live the coach does not have to add him yet and can sit him back down and then either add him later or keep him on the bench? Do I have that right?

Yep.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, the question is whether or not any statistical input from A15 (scoring or fouls) changes this.

Yup, that's what I was referring to. There was quite a discussion surrounding this not too long ago wasn't there?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why wouldn't he be?

Maybe it was a girls game?

[letemplay]

Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

Yep, 3.2.2C in your casebook.

Note the case play says nothing about whether A25 had scored or not, so an argument can be made that even if A25 fouls or scores, you still can't enforce any penalty.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Correctable error? Unmerited free throw?

The penalty for a T is 2 free throws and the ball to the opponent. Since a T was called, even though it was called in error, the free throw is merited.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Okay, I stand corrected.

...have you told the ol' boy you officiated with this?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

First, I hope the official charged the team, not the coach, with the T.

Second, yes if the free throw has not yet been taken, you're not too late to fix it. If, however, the free throw has been taken, what's done is done.

An interesting question would be if the team would still have a time out left since they paid a T for their 5th timeout.

Why can you not? These were unmerited free throws. Wipe them off then rescind the T. Done. And it will be done in my game because it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by deecee

Why can you not? These were unmerited free throws. Wipe them off then rescind the T. Done. And it will be done in my game because it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

They are merited free throws. Free throws are correctly awarded when a T has been called. You can't go back and wipe off a foul after play resumes even if you were wrong to assess it in the first place.

An unmerited free throw is a free throw that is unwarranted based on the foul called. Examples include awarding one and a bonus prior to the offending teams seventh team foul or awarding a second free throw after a missed first throw before the tenth team foul.

Sometimes we kick it. When we do, it's important to understand what we can and cannot fix. While I appreciate your motives, the rules do not allow us to fix this error.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Yup, that's what I was referring to. There was quite a discussion surrounding this not too long ago wasn't there?

Some think the case play is in error (not unlike the "backcourt interp" we all love to hate.)

Those opposed to the ruling fall back on "the scorer shall keep track of those who enter the game" (or whatever the rule is -- I'm without my books), and for the scorer to do that, s/he'd have to enter the information, even if the student-athlete is not longer in the game.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

First, I hope the official charged the team, not the coach, with the T.

Second, yes if the free throw has not yet been taken, you're not too late to fix it. If, however, the free throw has been taken, what's done is done.

An interesting question would be if the team would still have a time out left since they paid a T for their 5th timeout.

What rule reference that states we can't fix this after the first free throw?

[just another ref]

What says we can't rescind a technical foul? Ref passes a glaring coach, as he turns away, he hears "You suck!" He whistles, signals, and reports a technical foul on the coach. His partner then tells him the actual speaker was a fan behind the bench.

Must we shoot then?