Messy situation

[zm1283]

Follow closely....this gets ugly.

I was working a BV holiday tournament today about an hour from home. Neither of the two teams playing were the host team. My partner is the R, and I'm the U for this particular game. I am in my 4th year and my partner is at 15+ years and has worked the state finals recently.

During the first half after I report a foul, the scorer and timer wave me over to the table. They inform me that V12 has entered the game but is not in the scorebook. I ask if he had just entered during the present dead ball or if he entered at the last stoppage of play. They tell me that he came in the last time the clock was stopped which was 20-30 seconds before this. As my partner comes up, I start to quote 10-1-2, saying that we have to enforce the penalty before the ball becomes live, otherwise it is too late. I am about to tell the scorer to simply add V12 to the book and move on, when my partner steps in and says that "Any time you add a player to the book it's a technical". I try to slow him down and reason with him, but he was having none of it. I wasn't going to stand there and argue with him, and he was adamant that we enforce the technical, so I relented.

So, we turn to the H head coach and ask for a shooter. (We are both standing at the table) The HC asks if the shooter can be anyone on the team, including a player from the bench. As I start to tell him that yes, the shooter can be any eligible team member, my partner now steps in again and says "No, it has to be one of the five players on the court". I turn to him and try to tell him that anyone who is an eligible player can shoot the free throws for a technical, he again was having none of it, so I didn't argue with him and let him have his way. (By the way, he ordered the other nine players behind the division line during the free throws. I have had 4-5 other partners either enforce this mythical rule or quote it this year....unreal)

As soon as the shooter for the H team finishes his second free throw (He made one of them), I hear the V HC asking me something. He shows me that V12 was in fact in their scorebook that was provided to the official scorer before the game started. This is where I'm not sure what we could have done. I was going to go with a correctable error, but 2-10-4 has me doubting that now that I read the rule. It says that the unmerited free throw can be canceled and all activity during the free throw can be canceled except for unsporting, flagrant, intentional, or technical fouls. (So we couldn't have canceled the free throw because we had an administrative T...?)

I tell my partner that V12 was in fact on the roster that the V team provided to the scorer and that it was a bookkeeping error and that we shouldn't have penalized it. He again disagrees and says that we have to use whatever the official book says. I tell him that the teams only have to provide their rosters to the scorer, and it is up to the scorer to copy the names/numbers/starters correctly. He wouldn't back down and we go on.

At halftime, we discussed the whole mess. He told me that he "Wanted to get through the whole thing quickly because it made us look bad to be discussing the situation in front of the scorer's table" and that "It makes us look like we don't know what we're doing". I told him that we would have been better off slowing down and getting everything right. I showed him the case play from 10.1.2, but he wasn't going to admit he was wrong no matter what I showed him. He still didn't believe me that any eligible team member can shoot technical foul shots. He also told me that the HC is responsible for the official book no matter what. I asked him if that was the case, why wouldn't home teams' scorers leave off a player from the visiting team on purpose in order to get a technical called on them.

[Terrapins Fan]

We often take the official book to both coaches and have them approve it.

"coach is this your official roster?" they look it over and approve it or correct it before the 10 minute mark....

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

"coach is this your official roster?" they look it over and approve it or correct it before the 10 minute mark....

and if they actually look at it, pay attention to it, and answer with the same attention to detail and conviction as when they're asked, "Coach are your players properly equipped and ready to play?" then they're may be an issue down the road anyway....... just sayin.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

During the first half after I report a foul, the scorer and timer wave me over to the table. They inform me that V12 has entered the game but is not in the scorebook. I ask if he had just entered during the present dead ball or if he entered at the last stoppage of play. They tell me that he came in the last time the clock was stopped which was 20-30 seconds before this. As my partner comes up, I start to quote 10-1-2, saying that we have to enforce the penalty before the ball becomes live, otherwise it is too late. I am about to tell the scorer to simply add V12 to the book and move on, when my partner steps in and says that "Any time you add a player to the book it's a technical". I try to slow him down and reason with him, but he was having none of it. I wasn't going to stand there and argue with him, and he was adamant that we enforce the technical, so I relented.

The only one which must be discovered before the ball becomes live to start the game, is 10-1-2a, changing a designated starter. 10-1-2b, adding a name to the team member list, is penalized when it occurs.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It says that the unmerited free throw can be canceled and all activity during the free throw can be canceled except for unsporting, flagrant, intentional, or technical fouls. (So we couldn't have canceled the free throw because we had an administrative T...?)

You could have corrected the error and canceled the free throws. What you cannot cancel is a T that occurs during the unmerited free throws.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The only one which must be discovered before the ball becomes live to start the game, is 10-1-2a, changing a designated starter. 10-1-2b, adding a name to the team member list, is penalized when it occurs.

Look at the first casebook play under Rule 10.

Edit: 10.1.2b

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You could have corrected the error and canceled the free throws. What you cannot cancel is a T that occurs during the unmerited free throws.

That is what I thought.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

We often take the official book to both coaches and have them approve it.

"coach is this your official roster?" they look it over and approve it or correct it before the 10 minute mark....

This is done by a lot of officials around here, just not in this particular game.

The point remains that the HC doesn't have to return to the table after the 10-minute mark to verify the scorer has copied his roster correctly.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Look at the first casebook play under Rule 10.

Edit: 10.1.2b

When it occurs. The technical occurs when you add the player to the book, not when the player entered the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

...During the first half after I report a foul, the scorer and timer wave me over to the table. They inform me that V12 has entered the game but is not in the scorebook. I ask if he had just entered during the present dead ball or if he entered at the last stoppage of play. They tell me that he came in the last time the clock was stopped which was 20-30 seconds before this...

The ball is dead. V12 is discovered to be participating but is not in the scorebook. He must now be added to the scorebook. You now assess a 'T'.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When it occurs. The technical occurs when you add the player to the book, not when the player entered the game.

It is penalized when the infraction occurs, which is when the player enters the game. The HC is asking the scorer to add his player to the book when the player enters the game.

Am I reading 10.1.2b completely wrong? It seems fairly specific. I had this play happen two years ago and called the technical and was corrected when I posted about it here.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The ball is dead. V12 is discovered to be participating but is not in the scorebook. He must now be added to the scorebook. You now assess a 'T'.

So what is the difference between "occurs" and "discovered" in 10-1-2? Is the case play 10.1.2b wrong?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It is penalized when the infraction occurs, which is when the player enters the game. The HC is asking the scorer to add his player to the book when the player enters the game.

Am I reading 10.1.2b completely wrong? It seems fairly specific. I had this play happen two years ago and called the technical and was corrected when I posted about it here.

You are interpreting it wrong. The infraction is for entering the name into the book. The name is not yet in the book and wasn't on the submitted roster (even though in hindsight you said it was).

Originally Posted by zm1283

So what is the difference between "occurs" and "discovered" in 10-1-2? Is the case play 10.1.2b wrong?

In the case play the name was entered into the book and the ball became live before discovered by the officials.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It is penalized when the infraction occurs, which is when the player enters the game. The HC is asking the scorer to add his player to the book when the player enters the game.

Am I reading 10.1.2b completely wrong? It seems fairly specific. I had this play happen two years ago and called the technical and was corrected when I posted about it here.

You must be reading it wrong. The answers you have been given are correct. See also 3.2.2C(a) -- it's nearly your exact play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

It is penalized when the infraction occurs, which is when the player enters the game.

It has nothing to do with when the player enters the game. The player can play the whole game without penalty if no one notices and his name is never added.