Time out

[Scratch85]

4-25-1 A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness


No control, no TO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by TheBest

A1 has ball ; B1 grabs ball (held) can either coach ask for a time out (Ref has not made a call yet).

A1 has the ball, so Team A has team control.

Until the held ball is whistled, Team A can request a timeout.

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Sure. Either coach can request a time out.

Actually, both can't. Team A has team control. Team control doesn't end until the ball is dead, there's a shot or Team B gains player/team control. In this play, there's never player/team control by Team B

Originally Posted by Scratch85

4-25-1 A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness

No control, no TO.

The rule is addressing control of the ball, not team or player control.

Team A has player/team control and can request a timeout prior to a held ball being declared.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Actually, both can't. Team A has team control. Team control doesn't end until the ball is dead, there's a shot or Team B gains player/team control. In this play, there's never player/team control by Team B

Are you sure about that? Isn't the underlying point of a held ball that team A and team B both have control? The player from team B IS holding the ball....which fits the requirements for establishing team control...yet team A hasn't lost control since they're still holding it. If that were not the case, we'd never have a held ball.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you sure about that? Isn't the underlying point of a held ball that team A and team B both have control? The player from team B IS holding the ball....which fits the requirements for establishing team control...yet team A hasn't lost control since they're still holding it. If that were not the case, we'd never have a held ball.

Yes, but until a held ball is whistled team A is the ONLY team with team control.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes, but until a held ball is whistled team A is the ONLY team with team control.

What makes team control...having a player holding the ball. Is player B holding the ball? If so, they've met the definition for team control.

A held ball is called, in a sense, because both teams have control.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What makes team control...having a player holding the ball. Is player B holding the ball? If so, they've met the definition for team control.

A held ball is called, in a sense, because both teams have control.

Yes but when both ARE holding the ball...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch85 View Post
4-25-1 A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness

No control, no TO.
The rule is addressing control of the ball, not team or player control.

Team A has player/team control and can request a timeout prior to a held ball being declared.

----

So team a has team and player control BUT B does not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes but when both ARE holding the ball...

----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch85 View Post
4-25-1 A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness

No control, no TO.
The rule is addressing control of the ball, not team or player control.

Team A has player/team control and can request a timeout prior to a held ball being declared.

----

So team a has team and player control BUT B does not.

Once both teams get there hands on the ball, it can only be either dual player/team control or no player control for either (although team control may persist). A timeout is either no longer an option for either team or a timeout is an option for both.

(Now that I've thought about this a bit more, I'm going to flip on my reasoning but the result is the same.)

I believe neither player has control. Perhaps team control doesn't end (this doesn't really matter), but player control does end.

The rule you cited doesn't refer to which team/player is which in referring to not being able to obtain control but refers to them as opponents. It is saying that NEITHER player has control when both are holding the ball. It establishes the concept that player control exists only when a player is holding the ball alone. If you think about it, the whole point of player control is that the player is in control of the ball and is free to do what they wish with the ball (dribble, shoot, pass). And that is something they can not do if someone else is also holding it.

Once B gets their hands on the ball, player A (not necessarily team A) has lost player control and the option of a timeout is gone.

The only things that can happen next is that someone gains player control by pulling the ball free or a held ball is called.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you sure about that? Isn't the underlying point of a held ball that team A and team B both have control? The player from team B IS holding the ball....which fits the requirements for establishing team control...yet team A hasn't lost control since they're still holding it. If that were not the case, we'd never have a held ball.

Here's my point. We can't have it both ways.

If it's held ball, then there should be a whistle.

If there's not a whistle, then there's no held ball and Team A still has team control. You can't deny them a timeout.