Subs with multiple fouls

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not that I'd stop my partner from doing it, or even ask about it later, but wouldn't B be the correct answer? False double fouls are really just two separate fouls, right?

I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

[Scrapper1]

To Rich's point, I should have clarified. . . this was a high school game. Sorry for any confusion. I'll edit the original post.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

If there's one thing I'm 100% sure of, it's that the answer is NOT E.

[Jurassic Referee]

Can anybody cite me an NFHS rule that will deny entry to substitutes who have met the restrictions of NFHS rule 3-3-1(d)?

NFHS 3-3-1(d)--"If entry is at any other time than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

Someone please tell me howinthehell this rule does NOT apply to the situation described in the original post? We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.

You have no rules justification under NFHS rules to NOT immediately bring in those subs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We already know the free throw restrictions outlined in 3-3-1(c) don't apply.

You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You may know this, JR, but "we" don't. Why don't they apply? I agree that if they don't apply, then the answer is A. But that's an "if" I'm not ready to concede yet.

Rule 3-3-1(c) is telling us what the substitution restrictions are for multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c). It ain't applicable. If it was applicable, the rulesmakers wouldn't have specified personal fouls only. That means we have to look and see which other rule is applicable. And the only one available that is applicable is 3-3-1(d).

Rules rulz!

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 3-3-1(c) is telling us what the substitution restrictions are for multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c). It ain't applicable. If it was applicable, the rulesmakers wouldn't have specified personal fouls only. That means we have to look and see which other rule is applicable. And the only one available that is applicable is 3-3-1(d).

Rules rulz!

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

So, you're saying a double foul is its own entity, rather than simply two separate fouls? That's what it boils down to, it seems.

The way I see the situation, it has multiple free throws from a personal foul followed by multiple free throws from a technical foul.

New Sitch:
A1 fouled while shooting an unsuccessfull three point shot. During the first FT, Coach A is in the ear of the T, earning himself a seatbelt immediately after the first FT goes in. Subs are at the table as the T reports the T.

Are you letting them in now rather than after the 2nd (of 3) FT?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1) So, you're saying a double foul is its own entity, rather than simply two separate fouls?

2) New Sitch:
A1 fouled while shooting an unsuccessfull three point shot. During the first FT, Coach A is in the ear of the T, earning himself a seatbelt immediately after the first FT goes in. Subs are at the table as the T reports the T. Are you letting them in now rather than after the 2nd (of 3) FT?

1) Naw, that's too deep for a dummy like me. I'm saying that I just try to follow a rule that I can show someone if questioned. That 3-3-1(d) in this situation.

2) Why wouldn't you? You now have left multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls, not multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls only. NFHS rule 3-3-1(c) no longer is applicable and 3-3-1(d) is.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

You mean like...

See if you can find something that states a player on the floor with the ball can do anything other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a time-out or sit up if he's on his back.

Y'all were thinking too damn much.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You mean like...

See if you can find something that states a player on the floor with the ball can do anything other than pass, shoot, start a dribble, request a time-out or sit up if he's on his back.

Y'all were thinking too damn much.

You'll probably gets your when I get mine!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The situation described does NOT have multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. It has multiple free throws resulting from personal and technical fouls. Therefore we can't use 3-3-1(c).

Your logic is lacking in...logic. Just because there is also a technical foul does not negate the fact that there are multiple free throws resulting from a personal foul. I guess it depends on what the definition of "and" is

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Y'all think too damn much.

Yep. But you're hardly the first person to tell me that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See if any of you can find something that states you can't bring the subs in as soon as the fouls are reported. Also see if you can find anything that states that you can't bring another legally reported sub(s) in after any one of the free throws in the sequence also. I don't know of any rule that says you can't but I'm sure willing to learn.

Y'all think too damn much.

Still waiting for a rules citation that states you can't bring the subs in immediately......

And y'all are still thinking too damn much.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Still waiting for a rules citation that states you can't bring the subs in immediately......

And y'all are still thinking too damn much.

And I'm waiting for the evidence that 3-3-1c doesn't apply here.

And it's in my nature.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Y'all are still thinking too damn much.

"Cogito ergo sum." (René Descartes)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I have to admit, that this was my thought, too. The rule specifically says "During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls. . ." And here we have multiple free throws (due to the automatic bonus) that have resulted from a personal foul. It seems to fit the rule exactly.

Somebody convince me why it doesn't.

P.S. -- the reason I post this is because I was asked by another pretty good official who chose E in his game last night.

Another pretty good official wouldn't allow a sub to come in to shoot either the first or second free throws for the technical foul? Even though NFHS rule 8-3 specifically says that's legal? And he wouldn't allow the other 3 subs to enter at the same time?

Hmmmmmm.........