If I could change one rule, it would be....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I agree, but there are limits. I've seen a player literally reach out and grab his opponent's jersey with 2 fingers, then look at me expectantly. That's intentional or nothing, usually nothing.

If it's the ball carrier, I'm grabbing the foul and going to the other end to shoot the free throws. I'm not picky when it comes to teams trying to foul a player with the ball at the end of the game.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It is part of the game. The NFHS has said so. If the players foul in the right way, whether they intend to foul or not, it doesn't matter.

An intentional foul should pretty much call itself and the official should be prepared to step up and make the call when it happens.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If it's the ball carrier, I'm grabbing the foul and going to the other end to shoot the free throws. I'm not picky when it comes to teams trying to foul a player with the ball at the end of the game.

Grabbing the shirt in the manner described above (no exaggeration, no kidding)
is not the right way, in my opinion.

[BktBallRef]

Pulling the jersey is a no brainer - INT foul.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

...with the clock stopped.

And? The clock is always stopped when we shoot FTs, not just at the end of the game. They're willing to commit a foul and allow the opponent an opportunity to score in exchange for an opportunity to stop the clock.
It's a strategy, nothing more, nothing less.

I guess we shouldn't recognize a excessive timeout in such a situation. After all, it's a technical foul and therefore, "illegal."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Bingo. If a team WANTS a foul, GIVE them the foul. I've seen official pass, pass, pass, and then the defense says, "That's not a foul? HERE'S a foul." And then all hell breaks loose.

While I am more inclined to call a foul on contact that is right along the line between incidental and illegal, I'm not going to reward sloppy taps with foul calls either if there's no advantage.

Particularly if the offense is trying to avoid being fouled.

OTOH, if the offense is content to allow the foul, I'm likely to call first contact.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I guess we shouldn't recognize a excessive timeout in such a situation. After all, it's a technical foul and therefore, "illegal."

That's not a very strong analogy, IMO, Ref.

For me, it comes down to advantageous contact. If the contact is trifling, and the offense can work through it (i.e. hand checking an opponent that's already passed you), then I believe you're rewarding the defense by stopping the clock, even if they're going to the line. If the defense is making an obvious play for the ball, then I believe the foul to be "earned." Intentional fouls are exactly as others have described.

Simply put, I don't believe in blowing the whistle just because the defense wants you to. I say, pursue the ball, and earn the foul. If contact becomes excessive, then penalize accordingly by crossing those arms.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bainsey

That's not a very strong analogy, IMO, Ref.

No, actually your original idea and this idea are very poor.

For me, it comes down to advantageous contact. If the contact is trifling, and the offense can work through it (i.e. hand checking an opponent that's already passed you), then I believe you're rewarding the defense by stopping the clock, even if they're going to the line. If the defense is making an obvious play for the ball, then I believe the foul to be "earned." Intentional fouls are exactly as others have described.

Simply put, I don't believe in blowing the whistle just because the defense wants you to. I say, pursue the ball, and earn the foul. If contact becomes excessive, then penalize accordingly by crossing those arms.

So you're telling me the only time you ever call a foul is when the defender is going for the ball?

The FED does not require that the ball be played in order to have a foul or not have an intentional foul. Fouls are also committed because the defender is playing the PLAYER.

Call the first foul and then you won't have "excessive contact. Hopefully, as you gain experience, you'll come to understand this better. If you're smart, you will.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Pulling the jersey is a no brainer - INT foul.

Yup. Called one in the season opener last year. The coach asked why & I told him. The coach said he accidentally got his hand caught. I am sure my eyes rolled a 360 on that one, but I'm not sure.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, actually your original idea and this idea are very poor.



So you're telling me the only time you ever call a foul is when the defender is going for the ball?

Call the first foul and then you won't have "excessive contact. Hopefully, as you gain experience, you'll come to understand this better. If you're smart, you will.

And if it is intentional, there will be no advantage. It does not have to be excessive to be intentional. Especially if the lead is around 5 or 6 points, players sometimes get to the point of realizing they will not win and get in a hard foul. Getting that crap early gets you to the point where the offensive team holds the ball on his hip for the final 10 seconds much sooner.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, actually your original idea and this idea are very poor.

How so? I'd like some facts behind your opinion, sir.

So you're telling me the only time you ever call a foul is when the defender is going for the ball?

Of course not.

I understand your preventive officiating point of view, and I respect your experience, but I have never cared for the so-called "strategy" of fouling to stop the clock, and I believe if you're going to foul, at least you can try to steal the ball. (Such attempted steals are very seldom excessive.) Otherwise, I don't believe you deserve the advantage of a stopped clock, and as always, we need to be concerned about advantage/disadvantage.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by bainsey

How so? I'd like some facts behind your opinion, sir.


Of course not.

I understand your preventive officiating point of view, and I respect your experience, but I have never cared for the so-called "strategy" of fouling to stop the clock, and I believe if you're going to foul, at least you can try to steal the ball. (Such attempted steals are very seldom excessive.) Otherwise, I don't believe you deserve the advantage of a stopped clock, and as always, we need to be concerned about advantage/disadvantage.

I don't like the strategy of a coach pressing when he is ahead 40 points in the 4th quarter. But if it is within the rules I cannot stop him or her from continuing. And what if the offensive team has good FT shooters? Or if a defender is spending his fifth foul and he is the best ball handler for them? Just because you do not LIKE something, doesn't mean you ignore it if it is illegal [a foul] or step in and stop something [a press] that you do NOT like.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I understand your preventive officiating point of view, and I respect your experience, but I have never cared for the so-called "strategy" of fouling to stop the clock, and I believe if you're going to foul, at least you can try to steal the ball. (Such attempted steals are very seldom excessive.) Otherwise, I don't believe you deserve the advantage of a stopped clock, and as always, we need to be concerned about advantage/disadvantage.

1. This shouldn't matter. We're not supposed to insert our own philosophies into the game. I don't like coaches pressing at the end of the game with a big lead, but I'm not so presumptuous to assume I can make calls against the rules to promote my philosophy. If the defense creates an advantage with their contact, call the damned foul. Whether you believe they deserve the advantage or not is irrelevant; the freaking NFHS rules committee has stated that this strategy is part of the game.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. This shouldn't matter. We're not supposed to insert our own philosophies into the game. I don't like coaches pressing at the end of the game with a big lead, but I'm not so presumptuous to assume I can make calls against the rules to promote my philosophy. If the defense creates an advantage with their contact, call the damned foul. Whether you believe they deserve the advantage or not is irrelevant; the freaking NFHS rules committee has stated that this strategy is part of the game.

Deja vu, man.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Deja vu, man.

Hah! The kids are playing WII and it took me a bit longer to write that.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Hah! The kids are playing WII and it took me a bit longer to write that.

All I know is the "Be late. Be needed. Be right." philosophy might apply in some of those late game situations...