Game Over

[Johnny Ringo]

Game ends and officials get a thumbs up from the scorekeeper.

Scoreboard reads 62-60 in favor of the home team.

Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? What if it the books had discovered it had been tied after regulation? You don't go back out for OT, do you?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Game ends and officials get a thumbs up from the scorekeeper.

Scoreboard reads 62-60 in favor of the home team.

Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? What if it the books had discovered it had been tied after regulation? You don't go back out for OT, do you?

The guests win 63-60.

The home book is the official book. NFHS rule 2-11-11. The official book can't be changed after all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area. NFHS rule 2-2-4.

Rules rulz. And if the home team or league doesn't think so, let them sort it out.

Howinthehell could the table let the scoreboard get so far outa whack?

[Johnny Ringo]

And if the home book had the score tied ... What?

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Game ends and officials get a thumbs up from the scorekeeper.

Scoreboard reads 62-60 in favor of the home team.

Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? What if it the books had discovered it had been tied after regulation? You don't go back out for OT, do you?

2.2.4 SITUATION C:

Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials' dressing room. RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.

And
If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

And if the home book had the score tied ... What?

You ask the scorekeeper just exactly whatinthehell he was doing giving you the thumbs-up. Then you go back out, write all the circumstances down on the score sheet and then play an overtime.

And I gotta say that if chseagle had been named National Supreme Head Scoring Table Chairman like the masses wanted, this never would have happened. Nope, not under his stewardship. Heads would have rolled! Rolled, I tell ya! I blame Obama.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

2.2.4 SITUATION C:

Team B leads by a point with seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1 releases the ball on a try, but the noise level makes it difficult for the covering official (umpire) to hear the horn. The umpire signals a successful goal. The referee definitely hears the horn before A1 releases the ball, but does not realize the umpire counted the goal. The officials leave the visual confines of the playing area and are not aware of the controversy until the scorer comes to the officials' dressing room. RULING: Even though the referee could have canceled the score if the officials had conferred before leaving, once the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, the final score is official and no change can be made. In situations such as this, it is imperative that officials communicate with each other and that they do not leave until any problem regarding scoring or timing has been resolved.

And
If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score.

That's not what Johnny is asking. He wants to know what to do if the scoreboard has 62-60, the officials run off the court, then the table realizes that the running score has 60-60. For that you refer to JR's post above.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That's not what Johnny is asking. He wants to know what to do if the scoreboard has 62-60, the officials run off the court, then the table realizes that the running score has 60-60. For that you refer to JR's post above.

I was responding to this in the original post.."Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? " I guess my point is that the scoreboard score is not the official score. Visitors (guests) win 63-60.

[Rufus]

This may not be "best practice", but when I'm R (especially in sub-varsity games where the scorekeeping is somewhat spotty) I ask at the end of each period if the books agree on running score and fouls and that the scoreboard is agrees (not that they have to, but it helps prevent arguments). At the beginning of the 4th period (or a stoppage of play in the 4th period) I let the home scorekeeper know to give me the thumbs up if everything's ok at the end of the game.

Not sure if any of that would have helped, or if you did that and there was still the foul up, but thought I'd put it out there for consideration.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I was responding to this in the original post.."Officials in dressing area - going on five minutes - when game management comes in and says "I think we have a problem."

Apparently both books (I know home book is official) had the score 63-60 in favor of the guests.

Is that the final outcome? Or is it what it is when the officials left the floor? " I guess my point is that the scoreboard score is not the official score. Visitors (guests) win 63-60.

63-60 Visitors IS "what it is when the officials left the floor."

[SCalScoreKeeper]

This is very simple-Score in the books when officials leave the floor stands.If it is tied play overtime-I agree that a notation on the scorebook and report to your local assignor is also in order.I would be incredibly embarrassed if I was the scoreboard operator and home scorekeeper.Apparently neither of them has the concept of communicating to make sure the board and books match.It is completely unacceptable to be 1 pt off of what the books have let alone 5. If I were AD of the host school both these staffers would be relieved of their duties for some time and possibly permanently.
It also begs the question:Were these students or adults running this table? For the most part schools here (private) use adults in every table position (scorekeeper,scoreboard/game clock operator,shot clock operator).The schools that do use students do a pretty good job for the most part and we rarely have issues with their job performance(usually it comes with the shot clock-did team control exist or not? that sort of thing).CIF-SS,our sanctioning body,requires all table personnel during postseason competition to be adults.Here coaches jump all over us if we give points to the wrong side even when we are in the process of changing it.

[chseagle]

I'm wishing we had a similar regulation here, however we do not.

In The 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, it states:

"4.0.2 Selection of Scorer and Timer:
A. Adults: A high school student or one of last year’s graduates will have the interest and enthusiasm but may lack poise, impartiality and judgment.
B. Experience: Choose someone who has had some playing, coaching or officiating experience.
C. Faculty: If faculty men or women are available for these jobs, they usually do the best work, although it is not a guarantee.
D. Reliable: Choose men or women who can and will be present at every home game. It may be an honor to act as timer or scorer, but it’s not an honor that should be passed around with each game.
E. Good Judgment: Above all, choose someone with plenty of poise, good judgment, a sense of impartiality and one who you are sure will be able to forget the score and concentrate instead on the job."

Why don't all state & local associations enforce this? I realize that it's just recommendations, however can't officials (through their local associations) ask that these be followed?

Why is this only listed in the officials' manual & not anywhere else?

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

This is very simple-Score in the books when officials leave the floor stands.If it is tied play overtime-I agree that a notation on the scorebook and report to your local assignor is also in order.I would be incredibly embarrassed if I was the scoreboard operator and home scorekeeper.Apparently neither of them has the concept of communicating to make sure the board and books match.It is completely unacceptable to be 1 pt off of what the books have let alone 5. If I were AD of the host school both these staffers would be relieved of their duties for some time and possibly permanently.
It also begs the question:Were these students or adults running this table? For the most part schools here (private) use adults in every table position (scorekeeper,scoreboard/game clock operator,shot clock operator).The schools that do use students do a pretty good job for the most part and we rarely have issues with their job performance(usually it comes with the shot clock-did team control exist or not? that sort of thing).CIF-SS,our sanctioning body,requires all table personnel during postseason competition to be adults.Here coaches jump all over us if we give points to the wrong side even when we are in the process of changing it.

+1

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I'm wishing we had a similar regulation here, however we do not.

In The 2009-2011 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual, it states:

"4.0.2 Selection of Scorer and Timer:
A. Adults: A high school student or one of last year’s graduates will have the interest and enthusiasm but may lack poise, impartiality and judgment.
B. Experience: Choose someone who has had some playing, coaching or officiating experience.
C. Faculty: If faculty men or women are available for these jobs, they usually do the best work, although it is not a guarantee.
D. Reliable: Choose men or women who can and will be present at every home game. It may be an honor to act as timer or scorer, but it’s not an honor that should be passed around with each game.
E. Good Judgment: Above all, choose someone with plenty of poise, good judgment, a sense of impartiality and one who you are sure will be able to forget the score and concentrate instead on the job."

Why don't all state & local associations enforce this? I realize that it's just recommendations, however can't officials (through their local associations) ask that these be followed?

Why is this only listed in the officials' manual & not anywhere else?



+1

Where else would you have this recommendation be?

Also, you generally have a table that fits all those criteria for varsity games. It's rare that a table isn't component at that level. Anything below that, it's a matter of JUST having someone to do all that...whether qualified or not. There's just simply not enough qualified people who are willing to do a freshmen B girls game.

[chseagle]

In the appendix of the rules book as well.

Sure most sub-varsity contests not all the rules are strictly enforced, but why is that?

Concerning having qualified people do table for all levels, it could be done if those selected to do table didn't care about Varsity only.

The person we have do Varsity timing can easily do the JV game before, however she never shows up to the gym until the 4th quarter of the JV game in Gym 1 or she is assisting the concession stand. Apparently she gets paid only to do the Varsity games & so has no interest to assist with the other games.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Where else would you have this recommendation be?

Also, you generally have a table that fits all those criteria for varsity games. It's rare that a table isn't component at that level. Anything below that, it's a matter of JUST having someone to do all that...whether qualified or not. There's just simply not enough qualified people who are willing to do a freshmen B girls game.

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

In the appendix of the rules book as well.

Sure most sub-varsity contests not all the rules are strictly enforced, but why is that?

Concerning having qualified people do table for all levels, it could be done if those selected to do table didn't care about Varsity only.

The person we have do Varsity timing can easily do the JV game before, however she never shows up to the gym until the 4th quarter of the JV game in Gym 1 or she is assisting the concession stand. Apparently she gets paid only to do the Varsity games & so has no interest to assist with the other games.

You won't find many associations that will mandate adults for sub-varsity because..well its sub-varsity. While the games are important to those playing the game, it's still not as important as varsity in the grand scheme of things.

I guess if you wanted to get more adults to do the lower level games, you could make sure they get paid for those games. Even still, some people wouldn't want to do it. You can place restrictions like mandating someone do two games, but when that pool of those that want to be at the table is small as it is, placing restrictions doesn't help. Plus paying an adult for the sub-varsity as well would be an additional cost that schools would have to pay. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 3 officials for varsity than have that money go to having an adult for a sub-varsity game.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Chseagle,
You have to realize that at a lot of schools people serve in multiple roles.

For instance at our school:
*The timer and shot clock operator work all 4 games in a night (JV Girls,JV Boys,Varsity Girls,Varsity Boys-in order).

*I handle the score keeping duties for both varsity teams in addition to serving as JV girls statistician.For the JV Boys game I prep for my varsity games while serving as visiting team/official host.

*Additionally I report our girls scores to the appropriate media outlets and record the statistics to Maxpreps.com along with putting out a league-wide update.

PM me and I'll give you some recommendations with regards to making sure both gyms are staffed with qualified personnel regardless of level.