Player starting to fall in anticipation of charge

[drofficial]

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by drofficial

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

It could also be an unsporting T.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

It could also be an unsporting T.

Rules reference, please?

[JohnDorian37]

Originally Posted by drofficial

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

Unless you are vertical towards the opponent, then that is not illegal. A player can always absorb or brace themselves for contact.

Peace

[rwest]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless you are vertical towards the opponent, then that is not illegal. A player can always absorb or brace themselves for contact.

Peace

This is a HTBT play. In my mind it all depends on the amount of contact and if the contact caused the player to go to the floor. If they are leaning back so far as to require minimal contact to go to the floor, I've got nothing or a block. The main reasons players do this is to draw a foul and that is an Unsporting T as one poster has already mentioned. You can still call a charge when the player is leaning back because as you say they are allowed to brace or move to absorb contact.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

This is a HTBT play. In my mind it all depends on the amount of contact and if the contact caused the player to go to the floor. If they are leaning back so far as to require minimal contact to go to the floor, I've got nothing or a block. The main reasons players do this is to draw a foul and that is an Unsporting T as one poster has already mentioned. You can still call a charge when the player is leaning back because as you say they are allowed to brace or move to absorb contact.

Based on what rule?

Disagree. The main reason is to brace for contact. Besides, trying to draw a foul call is not an unsporting T, unless you think it's an attempt to "fake being fouled." They're not the same thing, necessarily. Allowing yourself to fall after contact is different, IMO, than faking being fouled.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Based on what rule?

Disagree. The main reason is to brace for contact. Besides, trying to draw a foul call is not an unsporting T, unless you think it's an attempt to "fake being fouled." They're not the same thing, necessarily. Allowing yourself to fall after contact is different, IMO, than faking being fouled.

First of all let me clarify. I like to use the To or Through principle. Did the offensive player go through the defender, then it is a PC all the way regardless of whether the defender was leaning or not. If he went to the player, meaning minimal (read here incidental) contact then I believe a block can be a reasonable call if the offensive player falls to the ground because of the defender lying on the ground. In other words, if the offensive player fell to the floor because of the "flop", it can be a block.

I don't agree the main reason is to brace for contact. I believe the main reason is to fake a foul, hence the unsporting T.

[Welpe]

4-23-3-e

Art 3:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

JohnDorian:

How in the world would falling away from the A player violate the principle of verticality?

[GoodwillRef]

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

Falling without any contact is very different than starting to fall before contact. Two different things.

Peace

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Falling without any contact is very different than starting to fall before contact. Two different things.

Peace

Right on, Rut!!!
Never truer words spoken

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

What is the intent of "turn or duck"? It's that the player is not required to "stand in there and take it" for this to be a foul. The purpose of turning or ducking is self-preservation. So is starting to fall before contact (setting aside any argument about faking being fouled).

But if you want something else to hang your hat on, then consider that a defender, planted in the ball handler's path has established LGP. And one provision of LGP is: "The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."

Falling backward, as Jeff pointed out earlier, is not movement "toward the opponent".

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

4-23-3-c

The guard may move laterrally or obliquely (to include backwards) to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

Help a brotha out...Rules reference, please?