Lazy Partner Advice

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He said "illegal number" as well. Which means that a kid might have a 28 instead of a 25. In my career I have seen players put a piece of tape over the 8 which I would consider illegal and not penalize. I have also seen teams with no number on the front, but numbers on the back. Often freshman ball will have warm-up jerseys and not real jerseys, which have all kinds of illegal issues under the actual rule. And if we enforce that rule to the letter, we would have to start every game with a T or in some cases like tournaments not allow an undershirt to be worn when they have to flip the jersey just to play another game in the same day.

Peace

but if his association has determined these rules should be enforced even below the varsity level (which I would question for the reasons we've discussed ad nauseum), then the veteran should be leading by example here.

I agree with your assessment on how the new guy should respond. Defer to the veteran in situations like this. Of course, with jewelry items, I'd do as Bob suggested and just bring it up myself.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The OP said specifically his association has been told to enforce everything at all levels. So why are people on this board giving him advice to ignore his association?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Good point; I was just surprised at those who said they agreed with the veteran that it was ok to ignore what the association had said to enforced. I should have included Rut's post in my response instead of yours. You just happened to be last at the moment. Sorry.

I did not say to ignore his association. Actually I do not care what his association said. I was answering what he should do. If the association is not at the game how can you go against a partner that wants to do his thing? If the partner is the Referee (which is likely where I live) and he does not follow the rules, he will be the one that has to take the responsibility. Not many people in my area would hold the rookie or younger official to task because the veteran wanted to do something, who also has more influence and can intimidate his/her fellow officials.

I am also from the Chicago area and I belong to 3 official's associations. I am President of one of them in the basketball division. I can tell you we do not assign games or dictate what guys do for assignors. Assignors dictate what is allowed or what is enforced in conjunction with the IHSA. Middle school is a mixed bag and there is no telling what the rules they use for specific leagues or tournaments. My associations do not have the power to tell any official what they do and it is common in most situations. The association I am President over has over 100 officials that are paid member, but during the season I will not work with many of them in my games as was the case Monday and Tuesday of this week while working tournaments. So even if we said "Association members should do this...." if they work with someone outside of the association they may not follow the same personal philosophies about anything. This is why the IHSA trumps all that stuff and if the IHSA has addressed it that is what we follow.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am also from the Chicago area and I belong to 3 official's associations. I am President of one of them in the basketball division. I can tell you we do not assign games or dictate what guys do for assignors. Assignors dictate what is allowed or what is enforced in conjunction with the IHSA. Middle school is a mixed bag and there is no telling what the rules they use for specific leagues or tournaments. My associations do not have the power to tell any official what they do and it is common in most situations. The association I am President over has over 100 officials that are paid member, but during the season I will not work with many of them in my games as was the case Monday and Tuesday of this week while working tournaments. So even if we said "Association members should do this...." if they work with someone outside of the association they may not follow the same personal philosophies about anything. This is why the IHSA trumps all that stuff and if the IHSA has addressed it that is what we follow.

Peace

And you know full well this is not the case everywhere; in fact his OP tells you that's not the case for him. In my admittedly smaller metro area (half a million), there is one association that assigns high school ball. The middle school ball is assigned by a few guys who happen to be senior members of that association. I can tell you, around here, if you don't work games according to their wishes (including enforcing 3-5), you won't work many games for them.

And here in CO, the local associations all work closely with CHSAA on these things. So, while CHSAA doesn't really control middle school; the requirements are often passed down to that level. As for high school subvarsity, you can guarantee the officials are enforcing that stuff if they want to move up to varsity.

Illegal uniforms are one thing; red undershirts beneath a blue uniform is another.

If I was in Denver, I'd be working for different associations like you, and around here, I'd have to keep track of the different requirements of the different associations.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And you know full well this is not the case everywhere; in fact his OP tells you that's not the case for him. In my admittedly smaller metro area (half a million), there is one association that assigns high school ball. The middle school ball is assigned by a few guys who happen to be senior members of that association. I can tell you, around here, if you don't work games according to their wishes (including enforcing 3-5), you won't work many games for them.

Of course I realize that things are not the same everywhere. And how he deals with that is really only someone can answer that lives in his area. They would know the procedures and consequence of not following such a mandate. I just answered what "I" would do. What others would do is up to them and their area.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And here in CO, the local associations all work closely with CHSAA on these things. So, while CHSAA doesn't really control middle school; the requirements are often passed down to that level. As for high school subvarsity, you can guarantee the officials are enforcing that stuff if they want to move up to varsity.

Illegal uniforms are one thing; red undershirts beneath a blue uniform is another.

If I was in Denver, I'd be working for different associations like you, and around here, I'd have to keep track of the different requirements of the different associations.

Agreed.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Odd uniforms I can live with.

Jewelry, undershirts, headbands, and wristbands: By the book.

If you ignore jewelry and it somehow, in a crazy situation, causes some type of crazy, odd, injury, there may be legal ramifications.

I've posted this before, but it's worth another read: If you think that the "Fashion Police" rules can't be enforced consistently, then guess again. Undershirt, headband, wrist bands, and jewelry rules are strictly enforced in the Catholic middle school league that I work. If we, as officials, don't enforce these rules, we don't get paid by our assigner. All officials know this, as do all coaches. After a few reminders the first week of the season, we no longer have any problems with these "Fashion Police" rules. No, "The officials last week let him wear his lucky stars and stripes headband". And some of these kids are in second, or third grade, coached by volunteer parents. If they "get" the rule, then high school players, coached by paid coaches, can "get" the rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Odd uniforms I can live with.

Jewelry, undershirts, headbands, and wristbands: By the book.

If you ignore jewelry and it somehow, in a crazy situation, causes some type of crazy, odd, injury, there may be legal ramifications.

I've posted this before, but it's worth another read: If you think that the "Fashion Police" rules can't be enforced consistently, then guess again. Undershirt, headband, wrist bands, and jewelry rules are strictly enforced in the Catholic middle school league that I work. If we, as officials, don't enforce these rules, we don't get paid by our assigner. All officials know this, as do all coaches. After a few reminders the first week of the season, we no longer have any problems with these "Fashion Police" rules. No, "The officials last week let him wear his lucky stars and stripes headband". And some of these kids are in second, or third grade, coached by volunteer parents. If they "get" the rule, then high school players, coached by paid coaches, can "get" the rule.

+1 for our area and the areas around us.

[bainsey]

I appreciate the thoughts and advice.

My board says that 3-4-1c (home team must wear white) is only enforceable at the varsity level. That's the only distinction we've received. Personally, I'd like to see some additional leniency for the middle schools, for reasons mentioned by others, but until I get that permission, I'll fall in line. If someone else chooses not to comply, I'll have to deal with it.

At the end of last season, I had a pair of middle school games where the away teams had a few red uniforms and white undershirts. My partner dealt with the boys' coach, and those shirts were removed in the locker room without incident. Later, I dealt with the girls' coach, and one of her players wound up in tears. Her mother actually came out of the stands wanting to see this rule in writing. The home team provided her with a red undershirt.

Internally, I was quite angry at the other officials (whoever they were) who let it go all year. One key fact is that our board is not the only choice in town that does middle school games. There's another crew, and to say they're more lenient in a number of facets is an understatement. This other crew apparently worked a lot of this school's away games (our board serves their home games), and I have a pretty good idea no-one cared to tell either coach about the undershirt rule.

I sympathize with those MS coaches who are given illegally numbered uniforms, for I bet most of them aren't aware of these rules, and/or they're told by the AD "it's just a high school rule" (despite my board's instructions). The trouble is, if you don't enforce these rules, those illegal unis never go away.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Later, I dealt with the girls' coach, and one of her players wound up in tears. Her mother actually came out of the stands wanting to see this rule in writing.

A little bit of over-reaction, don't you think? What's going to happen over the holidays when she goes to visit her Grandma, and Grandpa, and a mean old Transportation Security Administration agent tells her to get into the machine for a full, naked body, scan, and then to get ready for her groping, private area, pat down?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I sympathize with those MS coaches who are given illegally numbered uniforms, for I bet most of them aren't aware of these rules, and/or they're told by the AD "it's just a high school rule" (despite my board's instructions). The trouble is, if you don't enforce these rules, those illegal unis never go away.

My personal opinion is, especially with middle school but also sub varsity, unless I'm told specifically to enforce the number and uniform rules (3-4), I'm not going to at that level.

Conversely, unless I'm told not to enforce the 3-5 rules, I'm going to.

AAU and elementary are different animals, AFAIC, so I'll get direction from those responsible in that case.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

AAU and elementary are different animals, AFAIC, so I'll get direction from those responsible in that case.

Yeah, it really comes down to who hires you for the job, and just as important, getting everyone on the same page.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What's going to happen over the holidays when she goes to visit her Grandma, and Grandpa, and a mean old Transportation Security Administration agent tells her to get into the machine for a full, naked body, scan, and then to get ready for her groping, private area, pat down?

LOL. Actually, I can sympathize with the adolescent girl here. She was uncomfortable that the big, bulky uni showed off too much skin, and no-one on that team was aware the undershirt had to be the same color. Of course, I'm the bad guy for enforcing something that should have been all year, but no-one did, under the guise of "common sense."

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Think about freshmen level ball where uniforms are hand-me-downs usually from Soph or Varsity teams. A skinny kid has enough problems keeping his pants up, much less his jersey tucked in.

Fullor - I remember a JVB game I had a few yrs ago where they used the V hand me downs. The uniform tops were so big on some of the younger kids the arm holes were nearly tucked into the shorts and we could barely see some of the numbers. And, if they didn't have the waste-tie (dingle-dangle for you military) or it didn't work or was missing on the shorts we had the pants problems you allude to. Was really bothersome on many and really took away from their play.

[26 Year Gap]

I think one reason many boards want these things enforced is the consistency. How many of us have had to deal with "they didn't have to do it in the first game"? My last game I noticed a couple of players warming up in the prelim with ear rings or taped over ear rings. I let the JV officials know. They did NOTHING. Hand me down uniforms is one thing. Black t-shirts under white uniforms, jewelry, etc is another.

FWIW, if I see a player with a bracelet, jewelry, or hair pins, I let the player know. When I go get that coach for the pre-game meeting, I advise about illegal t-shirts and needing to remove them out of the visual confines for the team I am responsible for watching. The other guy is responsible for his team.

[deecee]

the only rules at the lower level regarding uniforms i would have a wide flexibility of is color, number etc. (things that might be out of the schools or players control) however regarding jewelry and undershirts, no way.

As for the association saying carte blanche it is to be enforced could just be that lower level officials might not have the capacity to make that decision and it is easier to just say that, but in reality they might understand if an official erred on the side of common sense. I am just speculating of course but that's just an hypothesis.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by deecee

the only rules at the lower level regarding uniforms i would have a wide flexibility of is color, number etc. (things that might be out of the schools or players control) however regarding jewelry and undershirts, no way.

I/we enforce it at F, JV and V levels. Consistency is key. I'm not having "the other officials let it go" discussion. Nip it!

In HS they know better and the home white uniform rule, numbers, T-shirt color, earrings rules have had plenty of time to take hold here.

Some of the kids still come out with those darn sleeves on.....and then answer that one, fairly simple, yes/no question wrong though!

[deecee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I/we enforce it at F, JV and V levels. Consistency is key. I'm not having "the other officials let it go" discussion. Nip it!

In HS they know better and the home white uniform rule, numbers, T-shirt color, earrings rules have had plenty of time to take hold here.

Some of the kids still come out with those darn sleeves on.....and then answer that one, fairly simple, yes/no question wrong though!

In this case I disagree with consistency across Frosh-Varsity. Here is where i will allow wider latitude and common sense to dictate my decision. And I am yet to meet a varsity coach that would argue for illegal uniforms just because it was allowed at a lower level. They will argue if they saw it allowed at the varsity level but in all honest varsity coaches understand there is a level of disparity between their level and the rest.

Im not advocating that someone follow my advice here. I always say follow the rule book. I don't think my personal philosophies on the game should be mimicked, nor even considered. Know the rules first and then make your own decision regarding such manners. Unfortunately most officials at that level or when they are just starting out either don't know the rules or dont have the capacity to make an informed judgement.

I really believe that the lower the level the more an official needs to have common sense and the ability to work in the gray zone and make decisions that would constitute bending the rules at times. This is one such scenario. The good thing about the varsity level and higher is that you don't have the luxury to bend the rules. Which I think makes it easier and how i prefer it.