Legally Equipped? Why Do We Ask?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Spence

Coach says "yes" to the "legally equipped question."

Right before tip we notice that the girl getting ready to jump has a metal pin in her hair to keep her ponytail in place. She's not legally equipped.

We seem to always just tell her to take it out and go on.

Why do we ask the question ? Is it to protect ourselves somehow if there's a problem?

How many coaches really have a full understanding of the rules that they should have?

I had a situation last year where after both coaches were asked if legally equipped and the game had been going on for a quarter & a half, a sub came to the table with metal bobbie pins in her hair. I buzzed at the next dead ball (as a courtesy) to notify the floor officials of the player & the coach had a fit cause of my noticing the violation. All the coach did was sit her back down & put athletic tape over every single bobbie pin.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by chseagle

All the coach did was sit her back down & put athletic tape over every single bobbie pin.

She's not coming back in my game that way.....

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by grunewar

She's not coming back in my game that way.....

For clarification, it was a C-Squad game & the coach just seemed to be there for the bonus money in the paycheck.

The floor officials conferenced & looked her over before she was allowed in.

As has been stated before, the floor officials have final say so I stood by their judgment to allow her to play with the bobbie pins covered with athletic tape.

Some of the bobbie pins were removed.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by chseagle

As has been stated before, the floor officials have final say so I stood by their judgment to allow her to play with the bobbie pins covered with athletic tape.

Wrong as those officials were and I'm probably beating a dead horse here but...

When would you ever have any say?

[jdmara]

I'll stir the pot a little bit. It was decided last year by the Iowa Girl's Athletic Union that bobbie pins less than 4 inches are legal. Big mistake in my opinion but for girls basketball we allow it

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

How many coaches really have a full understanding of the rules that they should have?

I had a situation last year where after both coaches were asked if legally equipped and the game had been going on for a quarter & a half, a sub came to the table with metal bobbie pins in her hair. I buzzed at the next dead ball (as a courtesy) to notify the floor officials of the player & the coach had a fit cause of my noticing the violation. All the coach did was sit her back down & put athletic tape over every single bobbie pin.

The coach in question probably understood that it was not your place to point it out, even if she had a hand grenade penned on her head.

[Texas Aggie]

We ask the coaches - and THEY are liable, not us.

This is probably NOT a controlling legal standard. While it is very unlikely for an official to be sued, and even more unlikely (depending on the state) for an official to be held liable for a player's injury due to illegal equipment worn by another player, asking the coach has nothing to do with it. You are negligent if you breach a duty (or standard of care) you owe to someone else and that breach proximately causes harm to that person. Assuming you owe the players a duty -- and I'm not sure you do, but if you do (state specific) its more narrow than many assume -- you're still likely going to breach that duty if you take the coach's word for it and ignore other, reasonable measures to determine if a player has illegal equipment. Further, the player isn't going to sue the coach; if you cross claim him, you now have the burden to show he or she bears responsibility, and all I can say is, good luck. They can always say they were mistaken, plus, you get into all sorts of legal issues regarding what duty he or she owes a player of the opposing team.

It can be a huge mess, but the statement listed above is not just too simplistic, it is legally incorrect. I caution non-lawyers against making definitive legal statements.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The coach in question probably understood that it was not your place to point it out, even if she had a hand grenade penned on her head.

So what you're saying is that even though the timer, scorer, & shot clock are part of the officiating crew, I should of let the player go in & chance that someone would get injured by her or her coach's stupidity?

The floor officials did thank me for seeing that, & were appreciative.

They also reminded the coach that she needed to check for that at all times, not just let the players do what they wanted

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So what you're saying is that even though the timer, scorer, & shot clock are part of the officiating crew, I should of let the player go in & chance that someone would get injured by her or her coach's stupidity?

Yes. It's not in your area of responsibility. Timers keep time, scorers keep score and shot clock runs the shot clock.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

Yes. It's not in your area of responsibility. Timers keep time, scorers keep score and shot clock runs the shot clock.

So what would happen if a parent or other spectator mentions to you about a player being in the game with an illegal item? Are you going to tell them the same thing? "It's none of your concern, just watch the game"

Being my background in security/crowd control, I care about the safety of those on the court (players & floor officials). Technically, (as I've said what seems like a million times) the table crew is supposed to be concerned about the safety of those on the court as they are part of the officiating crew.

Show me documentation otherwise that says that the table crew are not part of the officiating crew then your argument MIGHT stand a chance.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So what would happen if a parent or other spectator mentions to you about a player being in the game with an illegal item? Are you going to tell them the same thing? "It's none of your concern, just watch the game"

First of all I would not be having a conversation with a parent during a game that would extend to that kind of issue. If you were an actual official you would know that is a no-no.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Being my background in security/crowd control, I care about the safety of those on the court (players & floor officials). Technically, (as I've said what seems like a million times) the table crew is supposed to be concerned about the safety of those on the court as they are part of the officiating crew.

Technically no they are not. Not as a table person because there is nothing in the rules that gives you that authority. You are considered an official but your duties are well defined. You do not deal with those issues despite what you think those duties are.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Show me documentation otherwise that says that the table crew are not part of the officiating crew then your argument MIGHT stand a chance.

Better question is read the rules on the duties of the scorer and timer. Then tell us where it says you have the ability to prevent someone from playing in the game because you think there is a safety issue?

Peace

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by chseagle

So what would happen if a parent or other spectator mentions to you about a player being in the game with an illegal item? Are you going to tell them the same thing? "It's none of your concern, just watch the game".

Show me documentation otherwise that says that the table crew are not part of the officiating crew then your argument MIGHT stand a chance.

1) I wouldn't even say that to them. I pay no attention to what comes from the stands.

2) Have you ever read 2-11 or 2-12? Show me where it gives you all these powers you seem to think it gives you.

[grunewar]

I purposely avoided "the Eagle" confrontation, but knew others would pick up the chase......

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

1) I wouldn't even say that to them. I pay no attention to what comes from the stands.

2) Have you ever read 2-11 or 2-12? Show me where it gives you all these powers you seem to think it gives you.

So what if that parent gets overly irate at you for not allowing their child to play? (comes out of the stands & gets in face or raises such a ruckus play has to be suspended)

No where am I saying "All powerful", everything I have done is as an assistance to the floor officials, not a hinderance. I always review things in my mind before doing them. I know how not to overstep the boundaries.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

1) I wouldn't even say that to them. I pay no attention to what comes from the stands.

2) Have you ever read 2-11 or 2-12? Show me where it gives you all these powers you seem to think it gives you.

2-11 & 2-12 talk about duties only, not responsibilities. An official (no matter if they're on the field of play or off the field) has a responsibility to safety/security of those participating in the contest (no matter a player, coach/bench personnel, or fans).