Blarge administration

[constable]

Blarges drive me nuts. Call your primary. Give up the call if it's a drive going away from you into the other official's primary. Raise your hand with a clinched fist. Eye contact on double whistle. Determine which foul came first and ignore the other one,unless flagrant or intentional.

How tough is that?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by constable

Blarges drive me nuts. Call your primary. Give up the call if it's a drive going away from you into the other official's primary. Raise your hand with a clinched fist. Eye contact on double whistle. Determine which foul came first and ignore the other one,unless flagrant or intentional.

How tough is that?

I never thought it was hard until a partner and I had a blarge last season in a juco mens game. 23 years and it was a first. Hopefully, it will be the only one.

I was the lead and the foul happened right in front of me in the lower half of the center of the lane. Not sure why the T jumped in on it, to be honest -- it was a no-brainer block, too, as a secondary defender slid under an airborne shooter. Partner sold it so poorly I didn't even realize he had called anything until it was too late. I'm not sure I would've ceded to his charge call had I seen it -- it was the wrong call made by the wrong official -- why should he get that wrong call to stick just cause he's quicker to the gun? The C came to me during a timeout and told me it was probably the easiest block to call and somehow the T got it wrong.

In an NCAAW game, I would've been able to have the right call (a block), but I actually liked how the rule tied my hands and left both coaches grumbly rather than one happy and the other seething. After a quick explanation, we had the ball back in play and the whole thing quickly forgotten. Till the locker room, of course.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you feel that way because you work that level. I am OK with that, but that does not mean the rest of us or anyone that does not work that level has to agree that is the best way. Because as Cameron said, that philosophy has holes in it. I admit that a blarge is not ideal for anyone, but at least you are not arbitrarily choosing who gets the call. Because one of the blarges I have had in my career was in transition in the middle of the court. There was no "primary" at least listed. At least we followed a hard fast rule. The NCAAW side seems like we might decide based on the ego of the individuals rather than just a hard fast rule. And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem. The NCAAW side created a lot of wiggle room if you ask me.

Peace

I'm not sure what "holes" you and Camron are talking about, especially compared to how other double-whistle situations are handled.

Here's my main complaint about this rule - the NFHS and NCAA-M handle this one particular double-whistle situation differently than any other double-whistle situation. As I asked Camron, how would you handle this: in a dual-coverage area, you blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel. (Or, for that matter, pick any other double-whistle situation where you and your partner have different calls.) How do you handle that? I don't think you would come out and say "Since we both had a whistle, we're going to penalize both the travel and the foul". Of course not; you either get together and come out with one call (whose primary?), or perhaps one official steps up strongly and says "I've got it, it's mine." Is there "wiggle room" in that procedure? I guess so. Is one call made because of ego? Perhaps. But that's how double-whistles are normally handled. Until we get to this one particular double-whistle situation: the blarge. Why not handle it the same way as any other double-whistle?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm not sure what "holes" you and Camron are talking about, especially compared to how other double-whistle situations are handled.

Here's my main complaint about this rule - the NFHS and NCAA-M handle this one particular double-whistle situation differently than any other double-whistle situation. As I asked Camron, how would you handle this: in a dual-coverage area, you blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel. (Or, for that matter, pick any other double-whistle situation where you and your partner have different calls.) How do you handle that? I don't think you would come out and say "Since we both had a whistle, we're going to penalize both the travel and the foul". Of course not; you either get together and come out with one call (whose primary?), or perhaps one official steps up strongly and says "I've got it, it's mine." Is there "wiggle room" in that procedure? I guess so. Is one call made because of ego? Perhaps. But that's how double-whistles are normally handled. Until we get to this one particular double-whistle situation: the blarge. Why not handle it the same way as any other double-whistle?

Well I would rather have a situation that ties our hands than we can make a decision to choose one based on something no one else understands. Coaches and participants have no idea what our primaries are and honestly do not care. We are told to not to say, "That was not my primary" but all of a sudden in this case we can say that to them because we screwed up "once again" in their mind. Just about every blarge I have had (3 in my career) were a duel or transition. Only one of them could have been justified by the rule the NCAA-W used. The others there would have been in a considerable debate and might have caused problems later if we had to pass this off whose primary that the foul was called. I am sorry; I just do not like that. And Thank God that this is the way it is now. Then again it has been some time since I have had one and one of the reasons I am careful to give a signal when there is a possibility someone else could have something else. And as far as I am concerned we cannot change a rule because a very small percentage of people cannot follow the mechanics. And to be honest this was a problem mainly in one part of the country because they did not value raising their arm/hand/fist before calling a foul. And the NCAA-M mechanics changed so this should really not happen in it is followed.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Even tagging the wrong player with the foul?

We tag the wrong player with a foul every time we report both a block and a PC foul. Can't be both, so one of them is wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

We tag the wrong player with a foul every time we report both a block and a PC foul. Can't be both, so one of them is wrong.

This is why you do everything in your power to not have this happen.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why you do everything in your power to not have this happen.

Peace

I agree 100%...and I have never had one yet. I had a close call last season as I was L and a secondary defender stepped under an airborne shooter - but I was soooo quick going to the table that my C never had a chance to signal PC like he was going to!

My post was just negating the argument of possibly tagging the wrong player for the foul. That argument doesn't hold water in this discussion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel.

Part of my pregame: On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal. Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whomever has the primary coverage, most often the lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll talk about it.

Something that will be talked about is one of us holding up a fist for a foul and the other holding up an open hand for a violation, so we get together and discuss it. The conversation usually goes something like this: "I saw your travel but he traveled because he got hammered so let's say we go with the foul because it came first", or, "I saw your foul, but he traveled before he got fouled so let's say that we go with the travel because it came first".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic?

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

How does pregaming decide where a play will happen on the court? That is the problem, not that you'll yield to the primary.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutely no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up.

Actually, I feel the NCAA-W method is the cop-out. NCAA-W rules arbitrarily determine who is getting the foul based on whether their foot was 6 inches on one side of an invisible line or the other....not based on the actions of the players. The official who got it wrong just as well could be the one the NCAA-W rules defer to.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

I disagree. At least with the double foul, you don't end up tagging the person/team with foul that deserved it least while the other person/team gets no penalty. It should either be both or neither.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Camron,

Wrong player? You are going to tag both players with a foul...that is the alternative!

Originally Posted by rockyroad

We tag the wrong player with a foul every time we report both a block and a PC foul. Can't be both, so one of them is wrong.

Compare the two situations....

One person really deserved the foul but you tag both....1 incorect...1 correct. It more-or-less comes out as a do-over except a couple fouls are put in the book.

One person really deserved the foul but you tag one....you have about a 50% chance of actually getting it right but if you don't you double penalize the one that actually gets the foul....they get the foul and the other player does not. Now you have a 2 foul differential in the books vs. what should have been....2 incorrect.

Given that these are very infrequent, I'd rather be half right every time than incorrectly and doubly penalize one team half the time.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why you do everything in your power to not have this happen.

Agreed

Like talk it over with your partner and decide on one call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Agreed

Like talk it over with your partner and decide on one call.

I guess, but a lot of time you do not have to have any words said. Much of the time there is a recognition of who has the call and that person goes with it. The other official drops out and we talk about it later in the locker room.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

i guess, but a lot of time you do not have to have any words said. Much of the time there is a recognition of who has the call and that person goes with it. The other official drops out and we talk about it later in the locker room.

Peace

+1

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1

How can you say +1 when you don't agree with that philosophically?

Jeff said "much of the time". Your philosophy as in "talk it over with your parner and decide on one call' refers to ALL of the time. You're saying there should NEVER be a blarge. Everybody else is saying that there SHOULDN'T be a blarge, but if there IS a blarge, call it by the ruleset that you are using.

Trying to say that a very specific rule or case play is wrong or isn't applicable is patently ridiculous imo. Don't let that stop you though.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?