Blarge administration

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic? How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutley no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up. No different than correctable error situations or timing errors - we can argue all day whether the rule book solutions are "fair" to one team or another, but perhaps the rule committees decided they would make these solutions purposely "not fair" in order to make sure officials don't screw up so often.

The double foul penalty on the blarge is in the rule in NFHS and NCAA-M, so that is how it needs to be enforced. If a crew is mechanically sound, it will never happen, just like a correctable error will never happen to a crew that follows all the prescribed mechaincs. But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The double foul penalty on the blarge is in the rule in NFHS and NCAA-M, so that is how it needs to be enforced. If a crew is mechanically sound, it will never happen, just like a correctable error will never happen to a crew that follows all the prescribed mechaincs. But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

And you feel that way because you work that level. I am OK with that, but that does not mean the rest of us or anyone that does not work that level has to agree that is the best way. Because as Cameron said, that philosophy has holes in it. I admit that a blarge is not ideal for anyone, but at least you are not arbitrarily choosing who gets the call. Because one of the blarges I have had in my career was in transition in the middle of the court. There was no "primary" at least listed. At least we followed a hard fast rule. The NCAAW side seems like we might decide based on the ego of the individuals rather than just a hard fast rule. And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem. The NCAAW side created a lot of wiggle room if you ask me.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem.

I kinda like having wiggle room when solving problems.

But, hey, I farm for a living. My whole life is wiggle room.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you feel that way because you work that level. I am OK with that, but that does not mean the rest of us or anyone that does not work that level has to agree that is the best way. Because as Cameron said, that philosophy has holes in it. I admit that a blarge is not ideal for anyone, but at least you are not arbitrarily choosing who gets the call. Because one of the blarges I have had in my career was in transition in the middle of the court. There was no "primary" at least listed. At least we followed a hard fast rule. The NCAAW side seems like we might decide based on the ego of the individuals rather than just a hard fast rule. And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem. The NCAAW side created a lot of wiggle room if you ask me.

Peace

I'm not sure what "holes" you and Camron are talking about, especially compared to how other double-whistle situations are handled.

Here's my main complaint about this rule - the NFHS and NCAA-M handle this one particular double-whistle situation differently than any other double-whistle situation. As I asked Camron, how would you handle this: in a dual-coverage area, you blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel. (Or, for that matter, pick any other double-whistle situation where you and your partner have different calls.) How do you handle that? I don't think you would come out and say "Since we both had a whistle, we're going to penalize both the travel and the foul". Of course not; you either get together and come out with one call (whose primary?), or perhaps one official steps up strongly and says "I've got it, it's mine." Is there "wiggle room" in that procedure? I guess so. Is one call made because of ego? Perhaps. But that's how double-whistles are normally handled. Until we get to this one particular double-whistle situation: the blarge. Why not handle it the same way as any other double-whistle?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm not sure what "holes" you and Camron are talking about, especially compared to how other double-whistle situations are handled.

Here's my main complaint about this rule - the NFHS and NCAA-M handle this one particular double-whistle situation differently than any other double-whistle situation. As I asked Camron, how would you handle this: in a dual-coverage area, you blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel. (Or, for that matter, pick any other double-whistle situation where you and your partner have different calls.) How do you handle that? I don't think you would come out and say "Since we both had a whistle, we're going to penalize both the travel and the foul". Of course not; you either get together and come out with one call (whose primary?), or perhaps one official steps up strongly and says "I've got it, it's mine." Is there "wiggle room" in that procedure? I guess so. Is one call made because of ego? Perhaps. But that's how double-whistles are normally handled. Until we get to this one particular double-whistle situation: the blarge. Why not handle it the same way as any other double-whistle?

Well I would rather have a situation that ties our hands than we can make a decision to choose one based on something no one else understands. Coaches and participants have no idea what our primaries are and honestly do not care. We are told to not to say, "That was not my primary" but all of a sudden in this case we can say that to them because we screwed up "once again" in their mind. Just about every blarge I have had (3 in my career) were a duel or transition. Only one of them could have been justified by the rule the NCAA-W used. The others there would have been in a considerable debate and might have caused problems later if we had to pass this off whose primary that the foul was called. I am sorry; I just do not like that. And Thank God that this is the way it is now. Then again it has been some time since I have had one and one of the reasons I am careful to give a signal when there is a possibility someone else could have something else. And as far as I am concerned we cannot change a rule because a very small percentage of people cannot follow the mechanics. And to be honest this was a problem mainly in one part of the country because they did not value raising their arm/hand/fist before calling a foul. And the NCAA-M mechanics changed so this should really not happen in it is followed.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel.

Part of my pregame: On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal. Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whomever has the primary coverage, most often the lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll talk about it.

Something that will be talked about is one of us holding up a fist for a foul and the other holding up an open hand for a violation, so we get together and discuss it. The conversation usually goes something like this: "I saw your travel but he traveled because he got hammered so let's say we go with the foul because it came first", or, "I saw your foul, but he traveled before he got fouled so let's say that we go with the travel because it came first".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic?

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

How does pregaming decide where a play will happen on the court? That is the problem, not that you'll yield to the primary.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutely no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up.

Actually, I feel the NCAA-W method is the cop-out. NCAA-W rules arbitrarily determine who is getting the foul based on whether their foot was 6 inches on one side of an invisible line or the other....not based on the actions of the players. The official who got it wrong just as well could be the one the NCAA-W rules defer to.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

I disagree. At least with the double foul, you don't end up tagging the person/team with foul that deserved it least while the other person/team gets no penalty. It should either be both or neither.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?

See post #39 Blarge administration

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

See post #39 Blarge administration

That post doesn't answer the question at all.

Again, what is your procedure for a double-whistle, not involving a blarge?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That post doesn't answer the question at all.

Again, what is your procedure for a double-whistle, not involving a blarge?

It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

And, if it involves two differnet fouls and they can't decide which occurred first, it becomes a simultaneous foul and both are penalized...and you go to the POI..sort of like a doulbe foul. Hmmm.

[M&M Guy]

[QUOTE=Camron Rust;694880]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.



It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

Now I can turn around and ask you the same questions you asked about the NCAA-W procedure - how would you be sure ego would not be involved in who takes the call? How do both officials actually agree which happened first, when they have seen, and signaled, two different things? How can you be absolutely certain the call that's finally made is the correct call, and that one team didn't get hosed?

My point is, every objection you've given to the NCAA-W procedure can be used here. In other words, it's the officials' job to determine which event happened first, and then to make the correct call, not based on ego, or whether there was one foot in someone's primary, etc. That has been, and always will be, the procedure for a double whistle, where two officials have a different view of the same play.

What bothers me about the blarge rule is the fact this one particular double-whistle is treated differently. You cannot, by all of the applicable rules involving contact, have both a player-control and a defensive foul happen at exactly the same time. It's one or the other. Unfortunately, one official is wrong in their assessment of the play. The same thing can be said about the foul/travel situation - if the foul happend first and caused the travel, the official that signaled the violation would be wrong, since no travel violation can occur when the ball is dead. So, one official would have to "overrule" another to get the call correct. It happens. You wouldn't call both in that situation, so likewise, you shouldn't call both in a block/charge.

Again, the two officials would get together and make the correct call in any other double-whistle situation. In this case, their hands are tied and one team will be charged with a foul that they didn't otherwise deserve, only because the officials didn't do their job properly. In NCAA-W, the two officials get to come together to get the call correct, instead of charging one team with a foul they didn't earn or deserve, simply due to officials not following proper mechanics.